22 Comments

How about one for Palestine people as well, and Chechens, and Kashmiris, and Thai Malayians, and Iraqis, and Afghanis ... I think not ... no one complained in West when Bosnians were ethnically cleansed.
AA
2008-08-09 05:27:22

Can u give china a break?Too many things in 1 year.
李
2008-08-09 09:30:07

Well said, AA.
I find this website unfairly politically biased and anti-China government. We should not forget that not so long ago, the BRITISH (and the Indians etc.) were also fighting over Tibet and much bloodshed from their sides too was borne upon the Tibetan citizens. Also, to say that the Tibetans were non-violent in their protests is a blatant lie; e.g. everybody knows that many Tibetans made violent attacks on simple Chinese citizens running their own private shop businesses (hence why the Chinese army was sent in) recently, NOT Chinese attacking Tibetans (like a few Western media sites are making out). What ever happened to boycotting businesses? In addition, their so-called King, the Dalai Lama, has received much US government financial backing and it is speculated that such finance will be used to buy weapons to help to destroy China. Yes, that is SO peaceful.
I'm not saying the Chinese government is perfect (on the contrary, it has a long, long way to go. Anyway, no government is perfect), but can we please stop telling lies and being complete hypocrites, especially in the Western world. With the Iraq war still in check, I feel that the Tibetan crisis is a lot less extreme in violence, oppression, starvation etc. etc. At least the Chinese government feed the Tibetan people, provide them with the usual amenities, haven't blown up the Tibetan culture and treat them the same as they treat their own people. The Olympic Fuwa mascots are a symbol of this same-treatment, as not only is a separate mascot made for the Tibetans but it also on-a-par with Chinese regional mascots. In addition, who ever said Western "democracy" (or pretend democracy) was the best way to go about it? We should sort out our own problems before bashing other people.
I could go in to much, much further detail, but I fear I may write several pages of essay!
-Anon
LTZ
2008-08-09 20:38:34

(Don't forget Zimbabwe)
Hon Lam
2008-08-09 20:49:42

AA: yea yea, there's problems like this everywhere, so why bother? let's just sit here and do nothing and criticize anyone who tries to start somewhere. Let's just be skeptical of any change for the better, even though we can measure these. Let's just sit comfortably watching news and reading about atrocities far away, on the other side of the wall.

I guess is just very easy to criticize on a project that tries to create something out of nothing, when you are far away from where the bombs are falling.

Everything counts and nothing is enough.
Pablito
2008-08-10 23:43:48

To the people who have stated what about other conflicts?:

Of course there are equally valid movements for other countries but because the Olympics is in China now is the moment to talk about Tibet. It does not mean we are not aware of other issues (and we have done a lot of work about other issues). But the eyes of the world are on china and perhaps, just perhaps they may be accountable at this moment more than any other. So we have to seize the moment for this.


And in particular 'Anon':
I think to move forward in this situation you and I have to get over past exploitation by the West and using it as an excuse to not engage in this issue, it is something which I see time and time again as an argument for no dialogue. It should not be used for equal prejudice against anybody who wants to see this sorted out satisfactorily for the Tibetans. Their voice needs to be listened to first, not mine and not yours and they are asking for self-determination.

Also if you watch the film again you will you note that this past exploitation has been acknowledged in the voiceover, and the two people also talk as the west being no shining example of democracy so your arguments are already included in the film. The script was actually rewritten many times, to make sure it included this. We are aware of these and read widely about these issues before writing the script. And no - we don’t need to sort out our own problems first, we need to put effort into sorting out our own problems, this one and many others.

As for Tibetans attacking the Chinese. No violence is justified and the point of the text in the film was not that the Tibetans have not been violent but that the Chinese government has not allowed journalists in so nobody knows what is going on - and until they give journalists free access to the area all of what you and of course what I say about the incidents are conjecture. In the addition to the footage you are talking about I have seen images of Chinese soldiers dressing up in Tibetan robes to cause trouble I have also seen images of unarmed Tibetans who have been murdered by the Chinese. The point is nobody knows what to believe.

As for your speculation about weapons being bought by the Dalai Lama - again it is just that - complete and utter speculation without substance, so adds nothing to you argument other than to add to the general fuzzy fear and doubt. There is evidence of it in the 1950s when the CIA backed every anti-communist movement but not now. So it is better to not make these claims without credible evidence.

Regarding the way the Chinese treat the Tibetans. Again as it is said in the film there is systematic destruction of Tibetan culture everyday, and having an Olympic mascot that represents Tibet doesn't make up for that - from the language no longer being taught as the main one (it is still taught in schools but only as a secondary language) to, as the film says banning of the Tibetan flag etc. There is of course much more which we could have included about this and other issues but there is not time in a 90 second film, the point of it was to be simple and to discuss the arguments that often come up about this subject without being too black and white about it. I would suggest you watch the Channel 4 'despatches' documentary which went undercover in Tibet to see exactly the way the Chinese are treating the Tibetans. It will provide a bit of a reality check for you.
jonathan
2008-08-11 19:12:50

Initial thoughts for the rebels with a cause without a tangible effect:

Everything certainly does count and this is a penny for the collection box. That is not to belittle the effort but to put into perspective the value of the contribution versus the quasi-political posturing and dare I say, the PR value to the faded peacocks involved. Do such projects succeed? In this case I don't think so.

"Remember Tibet asks artists and designers to make a STATEMENT [my emphasis] about the ongoing fight for Tibetan..."

"...this site is not JUST [my emphasis] for designers to look at each other’s work but to be a resource for people who want to express their discontent with the issue."

"So we would like it to be something useful to people who express the SAME [my emphasis] opinion but also we want to show that designers do care about the situation and can use what they do for something worthwhile."

"We also hope that the work put up will explain the situation simply without recourse to ranting or romanticising the subject."

What strikes me as most disappointing is what the organisers consider to be 'dialogue'. Making romantic and simplified statements on a complex issue is inevitable considering the media involved, the contributors targeted and that we're not in possession of the full facts as Barnbrook readily admits. Furthermore as quoted above, said 'statements' must conform with the opinion of the organisers, they must conform to a Tibet = good, China = bad, binary opposition. This site cannot be considered as engaging dialogue but rather as a series of validated opinions: one that ironically mimics the Chinese model with reference to the internet. To put it more strongly, a place where designers can kick off their rocks with a trite visual cue, feel good about themselves for half an hour before forgetting the issues at hand while theirs are squeezing pints and waving fags. Exaggeration? The addition of some kind of messageboard where *two-way* dialogue can take place and where people can *organise themselves* is sorely missing. As helpful as sensationalising short films and hysterical posters CAN be, nothing beats open conversation and an education of the facts that we DO know. I repeat that this site hucksterises an ideology of good versus evil in the case of China and Tibet AND sets up the organisers as some kind of moral arbiter. This is their own doing by taking centre stage on the site and on this blog. One appreciates the thought but not the way it has been gone about, particularly when people are sententiously told "It will provide a bit of a reality check for you." Barnbrook and Pablito's defensiveness only serves to identify the monist philosophy on show.

I personally fail to see how targeting China during the Olympic games is a particularly good time to strike? If anything it will be swept under the televisual carpet as reportage is saturated with swimming triumphs and badminton victories. Either way I had no idea injustice kept a clock-watch.

Pablito confuses skepticism and critique for misanthropy. Criticism exists to ameliorate. The organisers would do right to listen and consider their own mechanisms.

The aesthetics of the site and introductory video are painfully dated. This might seem unimportant in respect to the core message of protest but it is not. Barnbrook -- who seems to be spokesperson for the collaboration -- insists that "If design thinks it can have an effect and help sell ’stuff’ for a company, then equally it means that it has a power which can be used to influence other situations." I would suggest that few graphic designers could sell a product based on such cheap, outmoded visuals. This alone constitutes a failure to engage the creative community, a failure to excite and entice contributions and logically, dialogue, however one way.
honest joe
2008-08-12 16:30:38

FT announces Free Tibet 2008 Television
Posted August 11, 2008 at 5:43 PM

Students for a Free Tibet has a new online video channel broadcasting from London throughout the worldwide uprising for Tibetan freedom during the Beijing Olympics: Free Tibet 2008 Television, or FT08.TV.

With all the Olympic actions for Tibet taking place and particularly the incredible success of the 'opening' banner action outside Beijing's 'Bird's Nest' stadium on Aug. 6th and subsequent media storm here in the UK, it took some time to get FT08.TV ready for prime time.

But with the dedicated help of lots of people, SFT's new video channel is up and running, and filled with lots of must-see on-demand content, including inspiring Tibet activist video-profiles, action reports, video-blogs, and more.

We're also airing a nightly Windhorse Report live from London with SFT leaders Tenzin Dorjee and Han Shan – a roundup of reports from Beijing and around the world during the Olympics, with breaking news about protests, call-in interviews with news-making activists, episodes of SFT-TV (the efforts of SFT's global grassroots), and info and analysis about the situation on the ground in Tibet.

There will be more and more compelling content to watch every day and we'll be improving the channel/website as we go (after all, this is but one small facet of our Olympic efforts right now). But please come check it out: surf around the many videos on the channel, or watch the stream (click on "Streaming Now" in the upper left-hand corner). Last but not least, you're invited to submit video... check out the channel for more on what we're looking for.

Please help spread the word about FT08.TV– join the facebook group, blog about it, embed the videos, spam your address book – and of course, keep watching.

And don't forget to visit SFT's Olympics Campaign website: http://www.FreeTibet2008.org and SFT's blog: http://www.blog.studentsforafreetibet.org for more news and analysis from the frontlines of the current global effort to make Olympic history for Tibet.

Note: many thanks to Nathan Dorjee, Shannon Service, Andi Mignolo, Alex Fountain, Thupten Nyima, Kala Mendoza, and many others for helping to make FT08.TV happen at this critical time.
5:32 PM

Go on your facebook, etc to announce freetibet2008.tv/live. After go on "social justice" websites like "witness.org" (check it out) to announce ft08.tv. Also check out blogs discussing Tibet issue's and post the official ft08 announcement.

Check out recent news articles on Tibet. Usually they have "comment" sections, post the ft08 annoucement.
tenzinin
2008-08-13 20:52:36

This is a big mix of ideas on Protests and Tibet.

The designers are the monkeys and money men are the organ grinders.

Why try and convert the converted?
(that's point 1)

Ask the Chinese people and others why they support the actions of the Chinese GOV and how they understand it, and then ask the Tibet people the same. Neither of them can be wrong because they are both right in their own right. Only the Chinese people can make the real difference no one else. Their people against their Gov is the only way to make a real difference and is the only real time we should support or get involved is when the Chinese people not Gov ask for it.


==========================================================================


On a wider view.

No protest will work because everyone has their own view so no one has a point. Everyone has a voice and no one is heard. Everyone believes in themselves so no one believes in each other.


Real Changes have always started from the bottom up, not top down. Yet top down is always the same nothing new. Barnbrook for example?

In the end unless we forget 'me' and think 'we' no one not even Barnbrook or any other famous designer can make a difference. Barnbrook can keep himself in the public eye and in books and be seen to be being the good guy and Bush could be doing the same but not make a real difference. But what are his real aims or is it a Act?


We all know the truth and what we should do but "everyone acts alone and fails together".


This could just be me but every time I see websites that claim to protest and make a difference they always seem like an advert for a company not a cause for example the Ad Posted by tenzinin. Is any of this real? (just a open view).

Why are there so many different individual Tibet websites and campaigns all claiming they are the ones and can make a difference, when they should all put their resources together and spread one message at everyone?


As I have stated before "everyone acts alone and fails together".
Raphael P.J.M.
2008-08-16 12:05:10

Thank you honest joe for your opinions-they are also the opinions I wish to express.
Jonathan-
Okay, I apologise-I read your mission statement and did not watch the video. However, both articles are somewhat contradictory. Your mission statement actually says, "Tibet...resists through non-violent conduct..." and "We should...stand up for democracy." This mission statement is even more obviously biased than your video, in fact, it is biased and sympathetic towards an ignorant, stereotypical Western opinion.
Somehow, I also can't help but feel that the video is also biased in its tone, especially when it ends on a seemingly "pro-Tibet" tone. Maybe it's my own, personal cynicism, I don't know...
Have you actually listened to anybody in the Far East? You aren't standing up for the Tibetans' opinion, you are standing up for your opinion of a so-called, possibly Western-style 'democracy' in Tibet (and possibly even in China) (again, see mission statement). A poll stated (although I can't verify whether it's genuine, but it is something) that the Tibetans were divided on whether to break away from China or whether to stay with the China government. I am a Chinese person who has many Oriental connections, and most of them have been to China (and Tibet for that matter) and have China Chinese friends. Many of them say that it is GOOD that China's Communist government is not only strong but also as fair as possible in its current circumstances. If lots of people started protesting, the China government would have a hard time having any strength to govern its people and would become destabilised with everybody shouting their opinions and doing whatever the heck they like. Once the government becomes destabilised, China-one of the largest and hardest countries to govern, will fall apart, just like Russia. At the moment, the USA is the top super-power-there is hardly any balance of super-powers in this world now that Russia has fallen.
In addition, in relation to your mission statement, I am not surprised that China has upped the no-interference policy at a time like this with the Olympics on. With behaviour from some French 'protesters' when the torch was rallied, is it any surprise that China has increased security on everything? If I were China, I too, would be very paranoid about something happening to me, especially with the media bashing China on a permanent basis.
However, you are right-I am speculating (although the Dalai Lama has already verified that he has received funds from the CIA but denied gaining personal funds, as stated in NYTimes, a US newspaper by the way http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFD61538F931A35753C1A96E958260). However, so is your stupid, contradictory mission statement, which seems to be in complete ignorance of the Tibetan or China culture.
Anon
2008-08-17 22:12:27

Christ what a bunch of depressing negative comments. No wonder design is seen as mainly irrelevant by everybody outside graphics. It seems you lot are more keen to slag off the messenger and prove what they do is pointless than try and suggest something positive or applaud a bit of effort.

Some of you posting here…‘honest joe’ has obviously got some stylistic agenda against barnbrook and the stuff he does, and is trying to hide it in behind some kind of pompous intellectual claptrap. Raphael PJM, I am sorry mate you need to go on a basic history course and you might learn something, who gets stuff on the agenda of ‘the people’ in the first place? its pressure from different organisations all working in different areas, design can’t change the world on its own but probably design in the service of a number of different people can. And yeah,well you might be a monkey working for the organ grinder but some of us have got a bit more imagination about about what we think we can use our profession to do and so your limiting statement at the beginning, well that’s your problem.

Thank Christ I am no longer a student, because you are a bunch of the worst examples to follow if I felt I wanted to do something worthwhile in my profession when I leave college.

And as for the guy who wrote ‘What about Zimbabwe?’ etc. Yeah, we know, we know…but in this case we are talking about tibet so stick to the bloody topic eh?
Adam F
2008-08-17 23:26:19

@AdamF: I think you'll find I gave due credit and suggested ways in which a project like this might be more effective. Furthermore, a negative can equal a positive if one chooses to consider / act on that feedback. You might also want to note that you have not rationally rebutted any of my arguments but have taken an obscurantists's way out in drawling, "high falootin clevuh tork". I feel I was very clear and to the point even though the breadth of issues here denies brevity.

It seems that people like you are more interested in validating their own gassy professions and through that, themselves, by assigning it overdue power and influence; much like a bricklaying boor at a party claiming a hand in Civilisation. Mini-sausage anyone?

I have no agenda against Barnbrook but it is interesting how you isolate him in the midst of a collaboration. I certainly did not.
honest joe
2008-08-18 11:36:50

Adam F

I do think my comment before on designers being monkeys is wrong and I now change my view, after a review of all the comments made. I think designers can make a difference but not alone. I withdraw my comment from before. Thank you for your statements.

I feel that Barnbrook should be credited for at least doing something, as one could look at it and say, what have I or you done?

So maybe its good that Barnbrook is actually doing something, which should be the focus of this blog rather than just random people (including myself) commenting about it if it’s good or bad or right or wrong.

The point is:

Its good that Barnbrook has actually done something he believes in and is making a difference and creating support. If you do or don’t agree with Tibet or Barnbrook or China, what have you actually done to support your views or your opposing views?


I think “actions” speak louder than “blogs”.
Raphael P.J.M.
2008-08-19 12:07:49

Can we please have a Free Scotland and Free Ireland in the UK first before we talk about this? The Chinese freed tibet from being in feudal serfdom and slavery. People claim to fully understand history in the far east it seems that this is not really the case. The west have a history of intentionally destabalising China for it's own gain. Uk took hong kong with regard to the opium wars. Why HK and not their capital city? It was for business. For some reason conflicts from your own country would always be right but wrong when other people do it. China also defended Tibet against Western invasion, yes that's right Western. Read up about Gurkhas in the 17th-18th century.
Now I'm not saying who's right and wrong because to be honest no politics are ever perfect. However I believe people should understand more about how western media has exaggerated many things as well and meddling with other countries politics has done a lot of damage in the past.
So lets give Scotland and Ireland back their independance.
Anon
2008-08-19 13:41:10

I think Jonathan Barnbrook should be applauded for at least trying to make the design community think about the situation in Tibet. And yes there are lots of other attrocities going on worldwide - but I think designers have - like the rest of popular culture become complacent, and safe, and too influenced by celeb adoration. Graphics in particular - once a real platform for communication of ideas - is another 'bling' artform of style without content. So good on you Jonathan for at least making a stand - regardless of the cause or what may seem like a drop in the ocean of global problems.
keith stephenson
2008-08-20 12:54:06

Tibet was annexed by the Chinese after the second world war. Living in China I can share that the last thing anyone with a sensible head would want to do is free Tibet without thinking the details through. Tibet was a piss poor theocracy when taken by the Chinese and will be an even poorer country if left to its own devices. Even the Uighurs in the East know that as independants all they've got is Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan et all to clamour for recognition against.


Yes. Geography homework time.

Far more constructive is to figure out ways of opening dialogue channels with the deep in denial government. Nobody has figured that out yet have they? Shouting at the Chinese is like shouting at drunks for being intoxicated. It makes two groups look stupid rather than just one.
Charles Frith
2008-08-20 14:43:38

Having read some of the comments within this thread I have to say most of you have little or no idea of what you are talking about - with regards to Chinese history or, more importantly, Tibet's.

Most interestingly though, you express these opinions with typical Western arrogance. How many in this thread know anyone that has had to escape across the Himalaya enduring frostbite because it was the better option than staying in one's homeland? Who of you knows a Tibetan who had to endure imprisonment, torture and daily beatings because they wouldn't denounce their spiritual leader? Who of you has seen their best friend shot in the back by Chinese guards because they had to try and escape the oppression and treatment enforced on them by China? Taken that decision to leave their families, maybe never to see them again, so they could attempt to make a better life in the west - indeed, have a life?

You speak out reciting extracts you have read in the media, spilling out propaganda to suit whatever cause that might be on the top of the agenda at that time - like the Olympics for example; however, it will always come back to basic human rights. Tibetan's don't have any.

Whether China's occupation of Tibet is right or wrong, the truth of the matter is Tibet is a nation in its own right. It has its own unique language - not Chinese, not mongolian or Nepalese - Tibetan; and a land to which it originated - Tibet. They are a race of people who have had their lands invaded whilst the western world did nothing. Yes the English once occupied Tibet - we occupied most of the globe at some point, but it doesn't make it right or justify China's occupation today and the treatment of Tibetans.

With regards to Charles Frith comment, 'Tibet was a piss poor theocracy when taken by the Chinese and will be an even poorer country if left to its own devices'... How dare you, you arrogant loser. I believe it is the right of the people of Tibet to make their own decisions as to how they conduct their lives and live it. It actually has nothing to do with the rest of the world. A remark like that can only come from a poorly read, uneducated individual born in the Western world. Aren't you lucky to have had the opportunities so many could only dream about. Comments like that make me want to spit.

The world is full of wars at the moment. There is death and hardship everywhere. So, come on - do something about it. Don't sit there expressing opinions from a position of fortune and freedom about people that have nothing in their lives- not even the right to speak freely or pray to their God. Pick a cause and make a difference. Its easy to bury your heads in the sand and carry on with your lives trying to ignore it, but as creative people I would have thought it was a prerequisite to absorb what was going on around us and reflect that into our work. Whether it be expressing the beneficial factors of a new washing powder or being political and using our skills to make a change for humanity.

You might agree with this effort to get behind Tibet or you may not. It really doesn't matter. But at least someone out there is doing something. They have got off their backside and done something about it. Its positive action which should be applauded and encouraged.
Grant wright
2008-08-21 00:47:42

Its interesting that in the comment by Jonathan he mentions several times about the things he has seen. By seen I guess these are things he has seen and read in the media?
`I would suggest you watch the Channel 4 ‘despatches’ documentary which went undercover in Tibet`
I would really like to know if he has been to Tibet and `seen` any of these things himself?
One of the first questions I would have asked Barnbrook about this project if I was Creative Review would have been; Have you visited Tibet?
Karl
2008-08-24 16:04:06

Adam F

I do think my comment before on designers being monkeys is wrong and I now change my view, after a review of all the comments made. I think designers can make a difference but not alone. I withdraw my comment from before. Thank you for your statements.

I feel that Barnbrook should be credited for at least doing something, as one could look at it and say, what have I or you done?

So maybe its good that Barnbrook is actually doing something, which should be the focus of this blog rather than just random people (including myself) commenting about it if it’s good or bad or right or wrong.

The point is:

Its good that Barnbrook has actually done something he believes in and is making a difference and creating support. If you do or don’t agree with Tibet or Barnbrook or China, what have you actually done to support your views or your opposing views?

I think “actions” speak louder than “blogs”.
employee monitor
2008-08-28 08:22:17

Has Tibet been saved yet?
honest joe
2008-10-27 16:22:31

Historically we should ‘Remember to Forget’ or possibly ‘Forget to Remember’.
http://www.dayofforgetting.com

but

Presently we should ‘Remember to Remember’ or possibly ‘Forget to Forget’.
http://www.remembertibet.org

Do these two positions cancel each other out?
Historical Present
2008-11-11 17:51:34

When my daughter was 7 yrs old she watched a short news clip in which children were living in makeshift tents, their eyelids fused together, their bare feet in snow.
She felt upset and wrote letters, organised a cake and coffee event at her school and managed to raise £300.00 and more awareness for the cause.
When my daughter was 10 yrs old she read an article about the suffering of ‘dancing bears’. She then wrote letters, made graphic posters and flyers, (and the aesthetic appeal of these was not important!) organised a car wash day at her school and managed to get a lot of volunteers on her side. They raise enough money to free 6 bears, incidentally, these bears although caged and in constant pain were fed and watered, the fact that they were fed well hardly justified their quality of life.
You are probably wondering why I am waffling on about a young child but I read all these comments on this blog and feel that the point of Jonathan and Pedro’s work is being clouded over with politics, suspicion, past conflicts, tit for tat arguments without substance and a few punches are being thrown in too - now, now boys.
You see, my daughter didn’t need to have visited the children in Pakistan (Earthquake disaster) or need to visit India to see dancing bears for herself. Nor did she need to understand politics, how’s or why’s. What she did was understand in one moment that another child was suffering and that the treatment of a bear was cruel, she then acted on her feelings in a way that she could.
This is what graphic designers and other creative’s can do, it is a voice and can be a powerful one. Its what anyone can do. Each of us has a responsibility to others on this earth because we all use it.
the world could not turn a blind eye to the denial of human rights in Tibet because the Olympic torch shone a light on China’s shortcomings. The running of the torch, which was designed to represent peace and harmony, became a huge gesture of hypocrisy.
If a 7 yr old gets it then surely it cant be that difficult for adults?
nikki rowsell
2009-02-01 12:29:09

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