CR Blog
Decision time for the RCA
Posted by Michael Johnson, 8 March 2010, 10:14 Permalink Comments (40)
This week is an important one for the future of graphic design in the UK, writes Michael Johnson. The Royal College of Art, the world's only post grad art and design school, interviews the shortlist of candidates to run its Communication Art and Design course. But with CA&D a decade old, has Art proved too much of a distraction from Design?
This course emerged over ten years ago when its now retiring head, Dan Fern, combined the illustration and graphics courses. On the surface, Fern's legacy is a series of world-famous alumni who have pushed the boundaries of their chosen specialisms, and there's no denying that every two or three years the course supplies perfectly formed groups of designers and illustrators ready to reach for new heights.
Groups like Graphic Though Facility, the Why Nots and Fuel. Designers like Jonathan Barnbrook and Daniel Eatock, illustrators like Sara Fanelli ... all RCA alumni. But everyone in that list graduated over a decade ago (some of them two decades) and the list of greatest hits has seemed a little threadbare since. RCA graphics graduates now seem to aim lower, are happy to knock out a few interesting typefaces, maybe do the odd leaflet or book for an art show, or a poster for the Tate. Many fall into teaching, either at like minded colleges or the RCA itself.
As one well known ex-student commented to me, "in recent years I've struggled to get excited by the RCA Communications shows", and that view is shared by many.
Taken in isolation, some of the shows have been intriguing, but when surrounded by incredible work on display elsewhere this department has sometimes seemed overshadowed. The architecture show is always guaranteed to make you question the world we live in. The world's car designers are snapped up immediately by manufacturers, and immediately start work on the world's next cars. The product and textiles shows are always an eye-opening advertisement for two more years of post graduate thinking surrounded by the best of the best.
The key issue that has distracted the course for decades has been ‘art'. Communications graduates have been at pains to present their work within the context of white walled galleries, not grubby old commerce. Work has often been presented as ‘work in progress', never finished. The ‘process' has become the king, not the problem to be solved.
With the movement of the ‘real art' departments to the Battersea site, this art-lite stance will become even harder to maintain, and feels increasingly at odds with the other design departments which view their industries as essential and valued partners, not hated adversaries.
The roots of this was the self-immersion/self expression phase of British design prevalent in the nineties, fuelled by then-zeitgeist collective Tomato. This found an eager audience in South Kensington. Rightly or wrongly, a collection of part-time tutors were gathered to support the course with performance, video art, experimental film and art specialisms. Coupled with the merger of the traditional disciplines, the ground was laid for a new generation of crossover graphic artists to bloom.
But they haven't. By all accounts the department is just as silo-ridden as it ever was. If you don't believe there's an art bias, just a brief interrogation of the department's website reveals that of the dozen or so current MPhil and PhD students, the vast majority describe themselves as artists (and only two as graphic designers).
In the meantime, the better undergraduate courses like Glasgow, Kingston and St Martins* (in the UK) have successfully incorporated these ‘conceptual' leanings into their courses, whilst still producing graduates capable of the basics of craft and typography. Students from these courses may not glean much more from two more years at college, apart from more room to experiment, and have often chosen simply to start work and get on with their lives.
Courses such as Brighton's have managed to show that it is possible to run graphics and illustration courses together and have produced some genuinely intriguing work in the process. As a contrast, LCC (itself now resolutely anti-commerce) has aligned itself strongly to the RCA's new mission, supplied coach-loads of graduates to the course as a result and revels in their new position as the RCA's ‘feeder'.
Meanwhile, post-grad courses are the only growth area left in education and are springing up on a monthly basis – soon the ‘MA in design' might be as ubiquitous as an ‘A star at A-level'. In short, there's a lot of competition and the RCA needs to clarify exactly why a student should spend two more years there. At present it's pretty blurry, apart from avoiding a recession-hit industry just a little longer and the undoubted kudos of those letters after your name.
And this resolutely anti-commerce stance has begun to grate. Even some of its most famous alumni like Daniel Eatock need the support of a Big Brother project to stay fiscally stable. As the country inches out of recession, surely now is the time to leave ‘art' to the highly qualified ‘proper' art departments and look elsewhere for inspiration.
So, where next exactly? Everyone's hope is that a ‘name' graphic designer will put themselves forward, with both a vision for the course and a coherent plan of how to stay a ‘name' if three days a week (if not more) is to be spent firefighting in Albertopolis. Conversely, since it is still seen as the plum job in design education, several well-known educationalists will have put themselves forward.
They will be undoubtedly be able to prove their committee-hardened targets-and-teaching nous, but might struggle to present themselves as the next Dumbar or Birdsall, previous professors on the course who may not have lasted long but brought much that desired status to the course.
Where the new head will stand on online media and the convergence of disciplines will be crucial – if the course is to stand as a living, breathing figurehead of creative communications that understands art but isn't beholden to it, then surely some digital savvy will really help. The industry also looks to it as a guide through the critical aspects of design, and design theory.
But this doesn't mean to say that retreating into textbooks, ‘research methodology' and ‘critical discourse' is the answer – you could argue that over-theorising has got it into this mess and what it needs now is some timely, 21st century problems for its students to solve, not another essay to write. Just a glance at the work of the RCA's Helen Hamlyn Foundation shows what designers can achieve when they apply their minds to issues, not to art.
Most simply wish that the course would remember how to communicate again, not obfuscate. And to rediscover its ambition – RCA graduates shouldn't be happy with a typeface and the odd museum poster, they should want to redesign the museums themselves, from the ground up.
Perhaps the last word should go to one of its current students: "I think what it boils down to is that there is an unbelievable amount of talent in one place on Communication Art & Design at the RCA, and I think the new head needs to have a clear and exciting vision on what to do with this raw material."
Absolutely. We wait with interest.
Several students, tutors and alumni gave their views for this piece, but most requested anonymity, which has been respected.
*For reasons of disclosure, Michael Johnson has been an external examiner at Glasgow for four years and is currently in his fifth year at Kingston in a similar capacity. He also teaches and occasionally lectures at LCC and has previously taught at St Martins. He was also on the original re-validation committee for the RCA CA&D name change in the 1990s.
This article originally appeared on Michael Johnson's Thought for the Week blog. Johnson is creative director of johnson banks.
***UPDATE***
Design Week reports that a shortlist of candidates is being interviewed for the position today. They understand that the seven candidates include Research Studios' Neville Brody; critic Rick Poynor; Atelier Works' Quentin Newark; illustrator and head of Kingston's School of Communication Design Lawrence Zeegen; St Martins tutor Andrew Haslam; designer Cornel Windlin; and designer/writer William Holder.
40 Comments
This piece nails a lot of the problems with design education at the minute- too much focus on fart-arseing about with concepts and visual experiments and not enough focus on communicating and solving proper problems. A strong understanding of the theories that inform graphic design, such as semiology, optical processes and environmental issues, for example, is still vital, but letting students do whatever they want without a particular focus is not realistic to real design practice and wastes a lot of time on doing visually pretty stuff with no real content or context.
This is not to say that independent identification of problems should not be done, as students need to have their entrepreneurial streaks encouraged, but design education needs to make sure students are doing work that solves things, instead of just being about things. Creativity comes in your solving of a very specific problem, not in just making something up just to try it.
On a side note, not that I am good enough, but I didn't even bother applying to the RCA for my MA (hoping to go to LCC). I don't see why any serious graphic designer would. Art is self-indulgent nonsense for the most part; I don't see how grouping art and communication design together can be at all conducive to producing effective design work that is actually useful.
2010-03-08 12:45:50
Dear Michael
I read with great interest your article on the RCA’s quest for a new Professor of Visual Communication.
I would like to add some notes of my own to your observations:
The vast majority of designers you refer to as inspirational examples from the RCA graduated in the period before 1991.
In addition to the dismantling of the graphic design course, the photographic department was absorbed into the fine art department around that time.
Another supreme blunder.
I have not attended graduation shows for four years as most of the type of work on display is irrelevant to the business of Graphic Design.
I cringed at the poor level of craft skill exhibited in moving image work and wondered if they were getting any kind of professional assistance in their moving image studies. The closure of the photographic and film departments may well have contributed to this.
I remember very well the lecture held by ‘Tomato’ in the Royal Geographical Society as part of the D&AD lecture series in the early 90’s. The hall emptied in about fifteen minutes. I have never seen people vote with their feet so quickly before, or since.
I am vehemently against the ‘white wall’ concept of a ‘market’ for the yearly crop of ‘designers’ whishing to pay off their student loans built up over five or more years of art school training. The RCA thinking simply does not add up.
These are supposed to be MA graduates seeking employment in a professional industry. They have been done a disservice for far too long.
There is undoubtedly the greatest concentration of talent in SW7 but now more than ever they need to be assisted to ocus on the requirements and technologies of the future and not be encouraged to ‘play’.
It works so well with the other departments, which proves it is not that hard.
Simon Carter MA RCA Graphic Design (1989)
2010-03-08 13:59:42
With respect, Dan Fern is a great illustrator from the 80's and it's about time the RCA got a new head for the communications courses, it is a great institution and it's a shame to see it being subjected to this (perfectly valid) criticism.
(RCA Graduate)
2010-03-08 15:33:07
"I cringed at the poor level of craft skill exhibited in moving image work and wondered if they were getting any kind of professional assistance in their moving image studies."
As a recent RCA graduate I can attest to this, there was a really lame attitude towards being taught (or even learning off your own bat) any kind of new or relevant technical skills. As long as your work was deemed conceptually interesting this was all that mattered.
As a direct result of this I find myself (as do most of my contemporaries) with massive holes in my skill set and unable to get even the most menial work.
2010-03-08 16:19:57
One of the best articles this website has ever posted.
2010-03-08 17:16:37
"As a direct result of this I find myself (as do most of my contemporaries) with massive holes in my skill set and unable to get even the most menial work."
I've only got a BA, but I'd like to think I don't have any 'massive' holes in my skill set. If you've still got them after you've completed an MA, I'd suggest there's something wrong with your own ability (or desire) to plug those holes rather than the institution(s) you've attended.
Having said that, if there isn't any provision for making students self-aware enough to realise they have to take care of their own technical development then that is a failure on their part.
It shouldn't excuse laziness though.
2010-03-08 17:20:13
What a curious piece. To be honest - I'd forgotten about RCA altogether, it hardly seems relevant anymore. I was a student there myself ( oddly enough - with the author of a previous comment ) and can honestly say I learned nothing, partly because I'd applied to a course run by Gert Dunbar and Liz McQuiston - both of whom I admired and want to lean from, but in the end was 'taught' briefly by Derek Birsall - who essentially wandered in one day - and for his own ( probably very good ) reasons, wandered back out a few later - mind you , he did invite us to his house for beer and crisps as an apology.
The RCA is irrelevant to me because I work in the design industry, that's the 'real' world - and I've always considered myself 'self taught'. That's because on my first day after RCA, in my shiny new job with my first class honours degree and Masters tucked under my arm, it was painfully obvious I knew nothing about the business of design - the receptionist was better trained than me. I shall never forget the humiliation of being told to do a 'mood board' - my blank eyed stare revealing my complete and total ignorance of what I was actually supposed to be doing there.
In the past 20 years I've worked in all areas of design - in-house and from my own studio, I've never needed to advertise, market or use an agent - and I've never told anyone I'm X-RCA, nobody would employ me! I've also taught - but not at the flash big colleges, at the smaller regional outfits where the students want to learn how to 'do' things.
Of course, it would be very unfair of me to compare my own rather disappointing experience to what happens now...... but I do seem to have spent the last 20 years getting calls from clients who have spent their budgets of 'amazing, innovative, exciting, groundbreaking, fun' work by shiny new RCA graduates - that doesn't actually work... and would I be able to come over and fix it for them.
We are desperate for exciting, motivated, talented new designers - but please, they really do need to know how to actually do the work, participate in a diverse industry and be able to treat clients, manufacturers, printers and the rest of their industry with respect - because they are just as clever and important as we are.
Richard de Pesando ( MARCA ) ( Blah! Blah! Blah! )
2010-03-08 18:23:04
"I've only got a BA, but I'd like to think I don't have any 'massive' holes in my skill set. If you've still got them after you've completed an MA, I'd suggest there's something wrong with your own ability (or desire) to plug those holes rather than the institution(s) you've attended."
I was in the Animation department; which is part of CA&D. I can only speak from personal experience but I've found being largely self taught in an increasingly technical field makes it very difficult to integrate into a working studio. There's really only so far you can go with online tutorials and a copy '3D Studio Max for Dumies'!
Incidentally My BA was in an completely unrelated subject to my MA
2010-03-08 18:38:12
Walking around last years D&AD show at Olympia was rather depressing:
There was far too much self indulgent—albeit aesthetically pleasing—self authored graphic trite, driven primarily by those pesky french theorists: Barthes, Baudrillard to name but a few. I really felt sorry for those students who had taken — or taught to be taken — this 'art based' line of enquiry; in my opinion this rather elitist approach to the teaching and learning of graphic design is in binary opposition with what is required in the industry.
When I questioned the students about their work none of them could articulate how their solutions would be of benefit in the world of commerce. Many students were very upset that their course had little or no professional practice input which left them feeling depressed about their career prospects.
Art based design is fine and dandy for those 'working' designers who can afford the luxury of being so self indulgent; however, I have always felt that to build a programme of graphic design education based on this ideology is akin to 'putting the cart before the horse', and does little to assist the RCA's paying students in gaining a real world job. That said, the RCA may not have the employment prospects of their students at the forefront of their teaching and learning agenda.
I too hope that a real 'named' graphic designer is offered the post at the RCA—but I doubt that will happen. If the RCA has the balls to recruit such a person then it would send out a clear signal to all those universities who have jumped on the bandwagon of 'let's see which theorists we can use to frame our next self indulgent project"
And call me old fashioned, but I feel that graphic design work should not be hung on white gallery walls, It's pretentious, pompus and makes me want to vomit [same for documentary photographs of war that should firmly belong in the domain of news media]. Let's get our students work back into its proper context: out there in the public domain doing the job its designed to do.
2010-03-08 21:37:56
@Gracepanda – Point well taken. I agree entirely that being taught technologies and software comprehensively by someone who knows what they're doing will stand you in better stead for working life. I tried to make my point rather too bluntly in my previous post (and I think I also misunderstood what you were saying).
To clarify, I took your comment about the lax attitude 'towards being taught (or even learning off your own bat)' to mean that there was something of an apathetic culture from both parties regarding technical skill. If that were the case then I was asserting that the onus is as much on the student to push for knowledge as the tutors to teach. Looking at it, I probably got the wrong end of the stick – If there was a desire to be taught more technical and professional aspects from the students (or if they were unaware they would need it), then I agree that should have been catered for. I'll try to read the posts before I reply to them in future!
2010-03-08 21:56:45
Everyone who applies to the RCA knows what it stands for. The Communication Faculty allows students to experiment. You don't have to try new things but if you want to you can. So, some people try animation/photography/film/etc and find they like it so they become animators/photographers/film-makers/etc. Others continue to work in traditional graphic design. Some work across disciplines. Some become artists.
Surely there's room in the creative industries for those who choose to work across disciplines, AND for those who prefer to focus on one area.
RCA Communication Graduate 97
2010-03-09 10:05:28
Thanks for the great post Michael. I didn’t even know Dan was retiring.
And that’s where the problem starts for me. The profile of the RCA in the real world outside South Ken is not what it used to be.
I graduated in 1998 from the RCA Graphics course, yes Graphics. It was the last year before Illustration and Graphics was folded into one and renamed to Communication Arts.
And here’s the thing: In 1996/98 no-one in our year did do much graphic design at all.
We had a “band”, staged (quite pretentious) performances, drew, painted and talked. I made a CD-Rom for the fashion department, published a book of a nonexistent world tour, because I could.
I had the most inspiring, crazy two years of my life at the RCA. With all this it’s no coincidence I am now working in advertising - my degree show consisted of a table with a bag full of mayonnaise on it…
Other people in my year like Matt Rudd http://www.ruddstudio.com/, Ed Gill http://www.edgill.co.uk/ or Dan Eatock http://www.eatock.com/ went on to do their thing with great success. All this is only possible precisely because the course allowed us to fuck around and experiment.
Whether the course is called Graphics or Communication Arts or Mayo On A Table doesn’t really matter. What matters is the quality of the students that are attracted to the RCA in the first place. It’s the students that make it what it is. The spirit of a great bunch of people working together and mucking around with no boundaries. I for one feel very lucky and blessed that I shared studio with so many amazingly talented people – some of whom I still work with occasionally.
Today I am not so sure the quality is there anymore. As an employer 12 years on I have not seen or employed one single student from the RCA. At the same time I haven’t really seen any new talent emerging from the RCA setting up on their own. And I have certainly not been itching to see all the degree shows.
Maybe that’s a good thing. Don’t know. All I know is that now is the time for the RCA to look at where it wants to go. There is a strong argument for a craft led name to come in and turn things upside down yet again by teaching actual Graphics. How mad would that be?
The question is: What does the RCA stand for in 2010?
But what do I know?
I bite my nails.
Flo Heiss
2010-03-09 14:03:46
This is a fascinating post, which I am not sure I entirely agree with. Certainly some of the recent RCA shows have left me mystified or underwhelmed, and certainly there is a trend for RCA graduates to pursue careers designing flyers for the Tate. The question is why.
When I graduated (from Kingston in 2000) I didn't have an email address. Admittedly I was a bit of luddite but it wasn't that unusual. I got a job, (working for Michael - who wrote this) and spent most of the money on CDs and books. And they were mine. You had to invest a bit of time finding them and you could be classed as having an 'interest'. It was actually quite a useful way of meeting girls, (except that my musical taste would misfire at crucial moments and reveal me as deeply MOR).
Now look what's happened. Everything is everywhere. Music, pornography, films, design... All blogging away before a billion eyeballs, instantly. Consumed in the same way. How weird it must be to walk into the Design Museum as a young student and wonder why you had paid £8 to visit a Habitat, when the one in the Westfield had a better café and 'loads more stuff'. (artist Matthew Darbyshire has a lot to say about this http://www.ica.org.uk/16732/Artists/Matthew-Darbyshire.html).
So some students at the RCA look away from making everything clear, from revealing themselves to everybody instantly. I don't think they are anti-commercial. They just want to be part of a gang. A gang that understands the dialogue they are involved in. And we are excluded from it. There are no posts on this blog from current or recent RCA students because they aren't on here reading this stuff. They are disengaged from a design industry which is commodified and ubiquitous, and that's good, because how could they find a voice in all that noise?
Better then, that it takes a while. The reason this post sites designers who graduated over ten years ago is that ten years is a reasonable amount of time to get it together. GTF were in the wilderness for about that time I think. New things are difficult to do, take time to develop and then more time for other people to understand. It would be a bit depressing if all that talent was co-opted into industry straight away.
Clearly, the problem is that the poor students can hide behind the good ones, appropriating the 'anti-reading' aesthetic and hoping that it will have the desired effect, lest we discover their work is empty. But time will out them so it doesn't really matter.
So who should get the job? I don't know if he is in the running but Daniel Eatock strikes me as a possibility. I have never met him/seen him talk so don't know if he has the terrible stammer or unfortunate body odour that seem to undo so many potentially great heads of department, but assuming not his record would hold up well. With Big Brother he has already deigned an era-defining logo in a very commercial sphere, whilst his work with Indexibit has shown remarkable foresight in the online world.
Finally, he is one of the few designers brave enough to have a clear manifesto and write it down:
Begin with ideas
Embrace chance
Celebrate coincidence
Ad-lib and make things up
Eliminate superfluous elements
Subvert expectation
Make something difficult look easy
Be first or last
Believe complex ideas can produce simple things
Trust the process
Allow concepts to determine form
Reduce material and production to their essence
Sustain the integrity of an idea
Propose honesty as a solution
As a manifesto for a design course it reads very well. And the first line should make Michael happy.
Alexis Burgess
BOB Design / Bob Books
2010-03-09 20:09:18
I think the Michael's comments about 'art' are interesting. During my time at the RCA (1993-1995) I felt that my area of practice (comics, cartoons and vernacular art) didn't feel particularly valued in terms of what felt like the general direction of the course, which seemed concerned with blurring the boundaries of what graphics and illustration could be (sometimes to the point of absurdity). However, as a one-to-one teacher I found Dan to be very interested, helpful, perceptive and constructive.
In terms of practical teaching, that really doesn't seem to me to be what a post-graduate course is for. Whatever I felt about fitting in or not with any prevailing agenda, the two years I spent there still offered a great opportunity for creative experimentation, and the academic perspective it helped give my practice has been helpful over the years.
The professional opportunities that came my way after leaving had less to do with the direction of the course and more to do with the independent culture I was participating in outside academia (skateboarding), and it seems a shame that that kind of entrepreneurial creative spirit still doesn't feel much valued there.
2010-03-09 20:59:16
MJ's article contains elements of interest - for sure - but also highlights the seduction of tired thinking.
The easy targets are there, plain for all to see, however the debate has moved on - the world has changed - where now, indeed...
Graphic Design is dead. Long live Graphic Design.
I'm not convinced this is the vision that will lead us to where we need to go... it is merely a question of balance.
Design & Art co-exist side by side, and that the more vigorous the one, the more robust the other.
...co-creation is the best guarantee we have of staying vital.
Rest easy... the RCA will be in safe hands... as it has been for many years - challenging the miasma of lazy design thinking, as these posts - and the creative excellence of its students - clearly demonstrate.
2010-03-10 10:19:50
I've got my interview on Tuesday. Plenty to digest.
Many thanks
2010-03-10 14:50:03
In my opinion Graphic Design as craft and how to run a business, talk to clients, make mood boards, metal typesetting, (…) has to be taught during the BA – and I mean a proper BA or Diploma that might take five years, instead of a trial course of just three. As a current design interactions student at the RCA I can’t talk for the communication department but I’m happy be at the RCA and learn to use design to ask questions and not to solve problems, besides learning new crafting skills as well.
2010-03-10 23:48:07
I think the points made in article are totally valid. I myself am a current student
however, not on the CA&A course although coming from a graphic design background.
It is time for the RCA and it's tutors to wake up and take notice of what we at RCA
can offer a living, breathing industry. It would be ridiculous to ignore our role as
'designers'. This debate is interesting and often crops up within our department
but is often totally ignored and deemed as totally insignificant and irrelevant.
WHY?
2010-03-11 00:53:00
I sent this response directly to the Johnson Banks 'blog' but there doesn't seem to be a right to reply. Thanks you for providing it here.
Dear Michael
The LCC is not ‘resolutely anti-commerce’. It was true that a few years back a number of students were successful in gaining places at the RCA, primarily from the BA(Hons) Graphic and Media Design course. This same course also has a placement year where students engage with the world of professional practice. The FdA Design for Graphic Communication also has a very practical and applied focus. The successful Graduate Certificate and Diploma courses were set up for people converting careers from diverse academic backgrounds. Whilst there was government funding for these courses we were very interested in what people from say a science background could do with visual communication. Many of the major projects found on our MA Graphic Design course have periods of industry/employer engagement. The LCC has a historic relationship with commercial practice and proudly continues in that tradition. I don’ think this is an either or situation, the LCC is a broad enough church to encompass a diversity of views and approaches. Thanks for the thought provoking article.
Tony
Course Director, Design for Visual Communication (2004-2009)
http://tonypritchard.wordpress.com/
2010-03-11 15:26:14
A leader not a manager. A man or woman with humility and breadth. A person with an eclectic sense of style
and a huge knowledge of graphic design and communication. Someone who understands the nature of an original idea, who relishes risk and innovation. A wise person with a sense of humour and empathy for others.
A good friend to many, a discerning eye, a tough and straight-shooting critic and someone who knows how
to make people feel great and shoot for the stars.
2010-03-11 16:24:12
"Even some of its most famous alumni like Daniel Eatock need the support of a Big Brother project to stay fiscally stable."
I have to say I smiled when I read this... so true and so sad. Some healthy balance work/life after the RCA is needed and it shouln't have to be Big Brother and Table Arrangements.
2010-03-11 16:36:14
I have a lot of respect for Michael, but there are a few points worth challenging…
Art and Design have never been separate, many designers are artists and vice versa, and I would argue this is where most of the interesting work comes from.
It's funny that Daniel, lovely bloke that he is, is being put forward as an example as he would say he was an artist, his work is more like a conceptual artist than a designer and he would also say that there aren't many interesting graphic designers at the moment, which is true.
MA's are not for making work for 'industry' necessarily, they are for enquiry and research if we limit ourselves to what the 'industry' wants we will end up with no innovation whatsoever.
There is no coherent communications 'industry' there are a number of studios and corporate studios, but it doesn't speak with one voice, nor is it even organised like in the US with groups like AIGA. It is also an 'industry' that treats many graduates in an abysmal way like not paying them for working etc…
Similarly design education has a moral duty to not pander to industry, things like Advertising are a hugely wasteful part of our out of control consumption patterns which are destroying our ability to live on this planet, Ad people bang on about creativity, yet most ads are so generic you don't even notice them, and if this area of communications is so important to the economy you have to ask the question why is it that it is ad budgets that get cut first in any recession?
Finally you need to understand the way education has been gutted in the last 15 years, if you are to ponder on quality of graduates, most BA's barely have enough resources or staff to teach the subject properly, most students are working full time as well as doing their degrees, there is no studio culture anymore and so it is barely surprising that at MA level things have got weakened. If London schools weren't able to recruit rich foreign students so easily this would be more obvious as a problem.
I agree we need more application of ideas to real problems (which means real problems not the pseudo ones that make up a large part of the 'industry'), but we don't want less thought, or less understanding and to become more rigid with how we see distinctions between subjects that arose from specific conditions in the C20 that don't necessarily apply now.
2010-03-11 17:20:01
I might as well be the one to ask: when do we found out who got the job?
2010-03-11 21:09:28
I was lucky enough to have met my two partners at GBH at the RCA in 1991 and we left in 1993 MUCH the better designers (and people) for it. We were fortunate with hindsight to catch the very end of a great period, although we had a mix of good and bad influences now I look back on it with some distance.
Margaret Calvert, Phillip Thompson, Bobby Gill (ex-wife of Bob), Alan Kitching were all great, with the legendary technician, Mick Perry in Letterpress easily as influential as many of the tutors. We had some bad ones, sure, but even the bad influences five the good ones context and help shape your perspective.
By far the most influential aspect of our time at the RCA on the careers we have gone on to have so far at GBH, was the diversity of the disciplines we were soaking up in there. The multi-disciplinary mix of ideas, passion and dedication that poured out of the melting pot which was the Art Bar at the RCA in our time there has had a profound effect on the way we approach Graphic Design at GBH, continually mixing technologies and approaches ‘to find a way'.
People have commented to me that our work feels 'Arty’. I always say 'Thank you very much’. What higher praise is there? The best artists display intelligence, humanity, intuition and desire. Are the skills required in a designer so different?
The late Alan Fletcher is the classic example. Art ran through his output like a rich vein of gold, and his work was that much more memorable and engaging because of it. As he once said to me ' The best designer is the one who can polish the most facets of the diamond', and that's totally right.
Design and Art are rightly interlinked. Commercial Art was the forefather of Graphic Design, its where we came from. Frank Pick at London Underground invented the Underground Poster advertising so the tube stations 'could be the art gallery for the people'. Tony Benn created the Royal Mail’s Special Stamp programme because he wanted to raise the cultural appreciation of our nation’s history and its achievements and share them with the nation on the postage stamp... some of our industry’s greatest creative opportunities were invented by visionaries who saw an opportunity for designers to be the conduit between art and the public.
The two go hand in hand. Fact.
But all this doesn't mean that the RCA has been getting it right. Far from it. Design education has become removed from the realities of commercial design and there’s an argument that it SHOULD be about exploration and expression without the constraints and strictures of ‘real projects’.
Some people feel that education should be single mindedly about preparing students for work.
The truth is neither of these are right. Neither will produce the rounded, powerful designers our industry needs to continue to remain world class. Like all things, the truth lies somewhere in between. Its about a balance, a mix. Commercial relevance on the one hand and the head space to explore on the other.
Nothing focusses the mind quite like the pressure of a deadline, or a client you just can’t let down. But the truly great clients understand that a degree of space is required if a designer is going to deliver something extraordinary. Its education’s job to get this balance right.
The RCA doesn’t have a divine right to produce unemployable Graphic Design graduates. It has a responsibility to its fee paying students to give them the tools to make a mark in the industry. In my view, it needs to roll up its sleeves and get back to the tricky, problematic battle ground of striking a balance, not hiding away in academia pontificating phillosophical ifs and maybes.
We have more students in creative education than our industry needs. We have too many art schools in my view, its unsustainable and in danger of becoming irrelevant. This is incredibly worrying because straighforwardly, supply is outstripping demand at an alarming rate. Student numbers are exponentially rising: take Kingston, which has some truly great tutors in my view... there were 35 students split between Graphics and Illustration when I was there in 88-91, now up to 110 or thereabouts in 2010, just in Graphic Design! There just isn’t the staff to cope, because there isn't the budget to sustain it. The government has forced colleges into a 'pay if you play' budget structure based on subsidies per head, with premiums for foreign students. Its inevitable that standards will drop and that art schools will burst at the seams. Its typical for students to work from home, because the universities just don’t have the desk space for them all. God forbid if all 110 turned up on the same day at Kingston, 40+ would have to sit on the floor!
What the hell is the industry going to do with all these designers? It certainly won't employ them all.
The whole system is burgeoning and fit to bust at the seams, we need less art schools, and less mediocre students. We need an creative educational review from top to bottom, with someone with the balls to tackle it.
It makes complete and total sense to me that the best of the best (The RCA) is only ever going to be as good as the quality of its students, and that is most definitely under pressure due to the economics of the system that feeds it.
Whoever gets the Communications job at the RCA, I hope he or she will re-engage with the commercial graphic design industry and consult it. You need our input.
Alan Fletcher would have been perfect, but he famously detested teaching. The saddest part of that is that he was a wonderful teacher, the best, because he taught us all through the work that he did. We all learnt from looking at the work of a man who had in perfect balance, Design on one hand, and Art on the other.
2010-03-11 22:57:51
I would like to correct a few assumptions made in Michael Johnson’s piece. LCC graphic design courses, of which there are a number at undergraduate and postgraduate level, are not resolutely anti commercial and never have been. Our Diploma in Professional Studies, for example, is one of only two graphic design orientated placement programmes in the country sending students on year long placements to internationally renowned studios and agencies Australia to South America, USA to India.
Additionally LCC has not supplied coach-loads of graduates to Communication Art and Design at the RCA. The number of applicants to that course is probably no greater than the applicants from the ‘better’ undergraduate courses Johnson mentions.
Interestingly it is the not Communications Art and Design course that attracts our graduates but Design Interactions a course which is may represent a new direction for some graphic designers.
It might be worth noting that one of our graphic design graduates has emerged from the recent Brit Insurance Awards from the Design Interactions course with an award for a product first produced whilst studying graphic design at LCC. This product, a folding three pin plug, is soon to be commercially available apparently.
While Johnson rightly mentions GTF and Fuel as not being replicated in this century maybe we should be looking at other models such as IDEO or Live/Work who embody what Professor Richard Buchanan refers to as the fourth order of design, namely Thought.
2010-03-12 11:39:03
There seems to be an issue with the word 'art' for a lot of people. Why?
When someone applies to the Royal College of Art, the name itself states that it is an Art institution. As a current Animation student at the RCA, i made a conscious decision to apply to an art school and not a film school, because i was aware of the nature of the courses, of the inter-disciplinary possibilities and of the level of 'experimentation' that i was welcome to explore during my studies if that was the pathway i was interested in.
As a Kinsgton graduate, i recognise the professional impact of Kingston, the great structure of the courses and their ability to provide ready designers that will be competent and successful in the industry. My decision to apply to the RCA though was lead by a need and a desire of more time to explore things that i am personally interested in and that dont necesseraly have to relate to the 'industry'. As Jonas Loh said, the industry preparation and efficiency should be developped in a BA course. An Ma cousre should not try and cover the lacking BA teaching, it should just be a time where the artist or designer can explore an area of interest further. Thus, the nature of the work will be sometimes more personal or more 'self-indulgent' as someone previously mentioned, but that is part of an MA cousre. A place where you can just stop and think a little bit more, observe what you are doing and question it extensively.
I recognise that no institution is perfect, and no course can cover all the needs students can have, but i think it is a tiring to hear people criticising their own courses when they have made a conscious decision to apply to them and have accepted their place.
The RCA is, of course, an art school, as well as a design school, but that has always been extremely clear through the work that is being produced and the school catalogue. This co-hexistence doesnt might not work for everyone, but i still believe is necessary for the production of interesting, inspiring and thoughtfull work.
2010-03-12 12:21:13
Aren't the BA courses to blame for the lack of technical skills?
A post-graduate course (MA) should be dedicated to reflection, analyse, theory and experimentation.
In my view, the commercial industry shouldn't determine what is learned at this academic level.
The RCA MA needs to engage with history, psychology, philosophy, anthropology, semiology, etc. in order to develop the field beyond commercial/industry expectations. As an RCA graduate (Communication Art & Design) the lack of real depth was the thing that disappointed the most! There seemed to be a substantial lack of ambition and tiredness (especially coming from the tutors).
2010-03-12 12:28:05
Thank you Michael and everybody else who commented ...for this! like Matthew! I have my interview on thursday!!
Perhaps the reason why I am going there/ rather wanting to go there - after having done one MA in Graphic Design at LCC is because of the amalgamation of Graphic Design and Fine Art.
2010-03-12 13:03:04
You can learn technical skills but you can't be taught ideas. The best design agencies will always prize creativity over technical skills so there is nothing wrong with students spending their time at college developing their thought processes because they will get precious little time to do so once they are involved in a commercial environment.
2010-03-12 15:11:05
“But this doesn't mean to say that retreating into textbooks, ‘research methodology' and ‘critical discourse' is the answer – you could argue that over-theorising has got it into this mess and what it needs now is some timely, 21st century problems for its students to solve, not another essay to write.”
MJ in original blog
I read this part of MJ’s interesting and eloquent analysis of the situation in design/education today with dismay. It’s so (too) easy to take a sideways swipe at the essay writing component of BA/MA courses when looking for blame, isn't it?
Over 6 years studying and 13 years teaching contextual studies, which has included stints at Kingston, Brighton, Middlesex, the RCA, LCC and CSM, I have never once seen an industry person or a studio tutor in a session to hear what kind of ‘context’ to their studies students are asked to think about. Nor have I ever heard an incident in which they have read, all the way through, one of the essays – which are apparently at fault.
For instance here is a quote I love which I have been discussing with a student from last year to do with his MA dissertation. It comes from design historian and philosopher Tony Fry:
“…to reify design…which is to present it in an objectified form removed from its dynamic process, is to misconstrue the very nature of design.”
Tony Fry, A New Design Philosophy: An Introduction to Defuturing (Sydney: University of New South Wales Press, 1999).
In the meantime, thank you for provoking an interesting discussion and we await with interest a new era at the RCA.
2010-03-12 15:16:14
This is a fantastic article; it holds some answers and a lot of questions to some fundamental changes needed in design education; I am pleased at last to read something current which addresses these issues (albeit right now only channelled through the question of who is going to take over from Dan Fern as head of school). And even more excited to find that everyone wants a piece of it.
The relatively new book 'Art School' by Steven Henry Madoff would make great further reading. Get it on Amazon.
I've also blogged a slightly longer response at http://www.hollywales.blogspot.com
2010-03-13 03:05:30
Great discussion - I suggest that Mark Bonner, if serious about improving the debate between industry and education looks more to undergraduate, vocationally focused courses such as 2 year FdA's (Foundation Degrees - no, not the Foundation Diploma year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_degree) who would be really happy to engage with you and warmly welcome your valuable industry input - I direct one at LCC and it's a constant challenge to find and maintain the industry links to help our students gain the required Work Based Learning credits of the course. It's well worth it for both parties however.
Or, alternatively, get involved with your local further education Btec National Diploma or new 14-19 Diploma Graphics course - I've recently been reviewing UCAS applicants' portfolios from lots of Btecs and they could really, really do with the help of the design industry.
I concur with J.P.C, MA's are about digging deeper into personal questions and academic 'quests' rather than providing some kind of enhanced industry-ready graduate. The people coming out of MAs should be disrupting industry...
As to there being too many graduates - I really disagree - I think design should be treated just like Maths and English - I can think of nothing better than the majority of people in the country having received some kind of design education. As a subject for learning it can act like a glue joining other subjects together and helping people see beyond that which is provided.
Adrian Shaughnessy in his latest book, Graphic Design: A User's Manual, under the Young Designers entry, agrees that teaching and standards have improved and states, '...the qualities gained through a comprehensive design education mean that graduates are well positioned to work in many areas.'
This is also a good link that deals with the kind of question of too many design graduates http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html
I also think design teaching has got better - tutors when I went to college just threw briefs at us and left us to it in the studio (it was fun to learn from peers and good to have a desk I admit). Nowadays tutors, mostly, have to have a teaching qualification and be able to plan workshops with clear aims and learning outcomes - the overall quality of the graduates work is light years ahead of what my peers left with 10-15 years ago as a result.
2010-03-14 21:35:26
Great discussion - I suggest that Mark Bonner, if serious about improving the debate between industry and education looks more to undergraduate, vocationally focused courses such as 2 year FdA's (Foundation Degrees - no, not the Foundation Diploma year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_degree) who would be really happy to engage with you and warmly welcome your valuable industry input - I direct one at LCC and it's a constant challenge to find and maintain the industry links to help our students gain the required Work Based Learning credits of the course. It's well worth it for both parties however.
Or, alternatively, get involved with your local further education Btec National Diploma or new 14-19 Diploma Graphics course - I've recently been reviewing UCAS applicants' portfolios from lots of Btecs and they could really, really do with the help of the design industry.
I concur with J.P.C, MA's are about digging deeper into personal questions and academic 'quests' rather than providing some kind of enhanced industry-ready graduate. The people coming out of MAs should be disrupting industry...
As to there being too many graduates - I really disagree - I think design should be treated just like Maths and English - I can think of nothing better than the majority of people in the country having received some kind of design education. As a subject for learning it can act like a glue joining other subjects together and helping people see beyond that which is provided.
Adrian Shaughnessy in his latest book, Graphic Design: A User's Manual, under the Young Designers entry, agrees that teaching and standards have improved and states, '...the qualities gained through a comprehensive design education mean that graduates are well positioned to work in many areas.'
This is also a good link that deals with the kind of question of too many design graduates http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html
I also think design teaching has got better - tutors when I went to college just threw briefs at us and left us to it in the studio (it was fun to learn from peers and good to have a desk I admit). Nowadays tutors, mostly, have to have a teaching qualification and be able to plan workshops with clear aims and learning outcomes - the overall quality of the graduates work is light years ahead of what my peers left with 10-15 years ago as a result.
2010-03-15 08:57:09
Interesting article - thanks Michael.
I'm always fascinated to see the levels and locations at which the form v function debate plays itself out.
2010-03-15 10:39:27
Who else is on the short list?
I taught in the department for 12 years, and left 12 years ago.
My love of new media led me elsewhere.
When Dan kindly took me on it was called the Illustration department - eventually the course merged with graphics and I got to “teach” graphics students in my last few years there, which I enjoyed tremendously but in the end I felt unqualified. Perhaps this small thought might be useful. Although my obsession with graphics runs deep and I seem to spend every waking hour working in InDesign or writing CSS - my soul still leans towards "Illustration". My worry is that whoever gets appointed will have a leaning in one direction or another – we need someone with an equal passion and obsession for all of the activities within the course. I'm still not convinced that it's one department.
2010-03-16 09:07:57
Wow - Neville Brody and Rick Poynor!
2010-03-16 20:39:46
There are several themes to this discussion, which I think will be productive to keep separate for fruitful examination. These threads are too intertwined with one another that its obfuscating the argument.The article is provoking the tired-old art vs design debate which is also oversimplifying the issue. To me there are three distinct threads which will be productive to discuss separately (though, they are undoubtedly linked). Firstly, it questions the role of graphic design and its positioning as a profession; secondly, it raises issues of the value of postgraduate education and what could be taught to ensure its survival as well as the kinds of graduates it could/should produce; thirdly, a political discussion of 'how to promote RCA'.
The first thread, on the role of graphic design and its positioning as a profession has been in question for more than a decade. Graphic design has always been the poor-cousin of the other design disciplines and it had struggled to claim legitimacy of its skills, knowledge and contribution it makes to society. The debate in graphic design regarding this continues to be poor, without much energy and vision to challenge how it can evolve and adapt to the current condition of the world. For too long, it has been punished for over-emphasising the commercial role it plays. It is indicative of the low confidence and optimism of this field - it feels like its lost, not sure what to do, and its only comfort is to cling on to its most celebrated crafts, typography and image-making, and the 'rock-star' designers of current and past. The innovative, exciting and challenging work done by every-day graphic designers who bring value to, and contribute to their world in meaningful ways is often at the fringes, remain hidden and rarely made visible for all to see. Do we really know enough about what we, and others do? Perhaps we need to start from there.
Postgraduate education in graphic design surely needs to begin tackling some of these questionings that bubble up from within the field - and not be seen as a finishing school or a safe-haven to sort one's shit out before going out into industry. The author of the article sound confused and ill-informed when he talks about 'retreating into textbooks, research methodology and critical discourse' as an over-theorising activity that 'got it into this mess'. The work done by Helen Hamlyn centre is all due to the literatures, discourse, critique, research and the energy and passion from the stimulated minds of staff and students who are there. Each of these activities may sound 'academic', but what is postgrad education without scholarship? Graphic designers who are willing to challenge themselves, as well as their peers and the broader field need to engage critically with their world. Books, discussions, critique and research methods are ways to fuel and accelerate that process. I would quickly add also, that these activities are not antithesis to art either. Arts-based research is a legitimate field of activity that produces rich, applied, real-world knowledge in a variety of creative, visual ways. Research, whether they are arts based or design method driven, is not 'navel-gazing' or a retreat into academia either - there are numerous examples of projects around the world that, through collaborative partnership with industry stakeholders, community members, designers and researchers are tackling serious issues and challenges that people face day-to-day. Again, do we know enough about these, and does that come into the mainstream discourse of graphic design?
The comments posted here indicates a community of designers, academics, postgraduate students who flocked to this space because they care and feel passionately about the future of the RCA. It is the design community's responsibility to make sure that it can still be regarded as one of the best postgraduate courses in the world. Personally, I am doubtful of whether the nominated candidates in this post will be up to the job for various reasons, though good luck to the interviewee panel - and the chosen candidate - all eyes will be upon what happens.
2010-03-18 00:24:48
I think the RCA should prize itself for making great designers not so much graphically led designers. The focus on being a graphic designer is too narrow now. Our time now is becoming a new age, how technologically again is making radical punctures in media and communication. Why are WE still talking about Britain's greatest hits? I see over the Atlantic and the designers in the States get on with what they want to do and what they feel is best for their own practice. It is so narrow-minded to even begin mentioning those particular designers. The best designers are ones that are much more aware that the existence of graphics is embedded with video, film, runway and installation. Designers still making pubescent posters???
RCA can learn from my own view a lot from other departments. Speak to Professor Louise Wilson from St. Martins who teaches the MA Fashion course. My gut feeling is she runs a tight ship but she gives her students a real industry edge without sacrificing the know-how to make things even without the opulent tools.
2010-03-18 12:17:04
Unless daddy has a wonderful country estate, paying fees back is no small undertaking. The course needs to be relevant and commercial but allow students the time to experiment and develop as artist/designer.
2010-03-20 01:15:42
As we all know the early 90s brought about the blurring of boundaries between the two areas of Illustration and Graphics and brought about a coupling of the two programmes - it made sense with the Apple technology changing the lay of the land at that time
( this was conveniently copied later in the late 90s by Art school planners and managers across the UK looking to attract audiences and lower budgets and estates in the last 10 years - yet it is now time to revert back to two distinct programmes and the responses above testify to how much division, ambiguity and 'misunderstanding' the blend has caused both subjects.
So in response to some astute comments or frustrations made on here about the lack of meaning or real world relevence, then here is my take on it
Im my experience there are two types of students in the 'Vis Comm' amalgam - both as valid and passionate as each other - but different animals - and both should really have their own programme of unique study at the RCA - a place where quality should reign over budget or space
The RCA should revert back to TWO bold and proud progammes - both with their own mandate, manifesto and philosophy ( students and staff can and will happily collaborate when appropriate )
So, number one:
A unique Graphic Design programme - one that does all that Michael Johnson and many others on here want - one with a clear mandate and identity for Graphic Design and typographic and digital leadership - industry and social advancement. No doubt but dont throw the Baby out with the bath Water ... because within the umbrella of courses within the design department as a whole there is any possibility of collaboration for those who seek it
number two: A unique and proud Illustration course in its own right
also some comments on here need addressing about Masters level students subject matter and content
A Masters Illustration student ( or BA for that matter) should not feel the commercial sword of Damaclese hanging over them and should be encouraged to embrace exploration and investigation with creative research and a breadth of cultural and contextual subject matter in any media - no matter how arts or philosophy basd - all crucial learning elements to feeding real problem solving issues from the inside out - these 'Illustration' themes are proudly Poetic and Philosphical and encourage empathy and knowledge of the Human Condition - a training that is fundamental if students wish to visualise it ! working in society as communicators - Klimowski called it - 'street level' communication as I recall.
This subject matter, with its introspective and emotional content also fits perfectly with being able to work with Societal, cultural and Ecological challenges ( see Helen Hamlyn RCA Foundation work and ethos )
Illustrators should be embraced for doing this more introspective work without Graphic Industry expectation so let them branch off or collaborate - let them breath and be left to reflect and make work without fear of judgement.
Illustrators / Image makers ( using all variety of medias these days ) should naturally be reflective and work with writers, thinkers and musicians - and indeed Graphic Designers / typographic specialists
To expect one student to learn and do everything on offer just dilutes the Malt at times in my experience and can spoil many a student confidence with a 'too much too soon' expectation especially with the Illustrator and typography issue - or them making their work appropriate for a 'design context'
There is as much importance for students to visit the ideas of poets and philosophers and 'Artists'...be it the TED lecture website ! Chekov, Papanek, Bachellard, De Botton, Carol Ann Duffy or Adam Curtis ) so students can indeed respond and relate to real people issues - and make work that has empathy, insight, depth and verve
Mr Kirk and Mr Wolf are spot on above with their posts - yet some comments on here show little understanding of why the RCA is indeed there in the first place and what it actually stands for and importantly what it has nurtured very well - innovative and maverick students who dont always adhere or fit in - passionate gifted students in need of a place to experiment and be able to author self initiated work without it being required to be acceptable or appropriate at that time of post grad study.
Links and collaboration is of course embedded in the institute - how some people on here suggest otherwise is baffling - It is vital for all the departments but free head space and the investigative passion to try things out - as if in a Lab - and trying things that may be incompatible is just as much the lifeblood of the place as any real world collaboration - collective team work is often an ideal and often a lot of isolated individual work has to take place also in order to break-through convention
This culture of risk is inherent across the South Ken campus - from the Royal School of Music to the Imperial College / sciences surely
You wouldnt ask a young composer at the Royal College of Music to validate their idiosyncratic style or measure it to fit the approval of their audience, peers or managers .... neither would you expect them to intellectualise their compostion, notes or tones with a written or verbal justification
... so why not let visual language have the right also to make resonant idiosyncratic images also that can then be 'art directed' if required by said Designers if they require that objective eye - or an 'editor'
so come on, give some of these students and staff more understanding in your notes here on past degree shows etc and dont be too judgemental ( any rca show is just a sample of whats been absorbed on a two year 5 days a week Masters ... not 2 days per week for one year as per elsewhere )
its a sign of insecurity on the part of the viewer to walk into a degree show for half an hour and expect to have a ubiquitous understanding of a cohort of individuals educational merit
also the place is not a finsihing school so some results may well be embyonic in that designers cycle of development - ad to me that doesnt lessen its importance one jot !
It is refreshing to see people expressing their views but I think without sounding too reverential for the old place - a bit more respect for the investigative spirit and depth of the holistic teaching and learning that has gone on there .... and especially for Dan Fern and his teams work over the years - my experience there during a pivotal era for the subject 88-91 was very rewarding and went beyond an expectation for hand to mouth teaching - it was sink or swim then - quite on purpose. You came in, took part - went to incredible lecture programmes -worked and socialised with very talented peers ( see the list of alumni for that period - incredible ) , so one listened and soaked it up and worked away quietly as a group
and if just a fraction of the inspiration around the place rubbed off on you then that was enough to get you and your ideas moving forward into the world - informed and better for it
Professor Fern has had one long and proud tenure - and one which should be celebrated rather than some comments made here - that tenure has produced a plethora of successfull alumni - if Dan were a football manager then some may say his better footballing sides were produced when he was the coach in the dressing room with the team .. rather than later on when he become director of footballl from the stand and all the extra duties that entails
Both types of student be they Illustration or Graphic - require cultural leadership and a calm, passionate confident coach - Michael Wolf has written the descriptor for that role perfectly in his post ( hello Michael ) and from my very brief time working with Wolf Ollins the accuracy of that doesnt surprise me
Good luck to Neville - an exciting challenge and going by this blog .... a hell of a lot of expectation ! - pressure that needs to be put firmly to bed - as heavy handed or loaded expectation can impact negatively on many a talented footballer, student or team
Michael Wolfs comment - thats the style
2010-05-03 17:58:41
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