31 Comments

"We should be teaching students that anything is possible, not that they will have to suppress there instincts about what they believe because that is the 'pro' way of doing things,"

There has to be a degree of students being taught 'how' to design. Learning the profession is totally unrelated to what students go on to use their learnt skills for. A designer who wants to use their skills to make a difference in the world is going to have much more impact if they have learnt how to engage people through design. You've got to learn the rules before you can break them.

Can Occupy Design make a difference? I hope so.
Paul Bailey
2012-01-27 16:39:13

"Capitalism means war".

This kind of blanket simplification is where a lot of sensible people lose sympathy with this movement that does have some valid points to make. Most wars in the last 100 years have been driven by ideology - Fascism, Communism, Islam. Strong economic ties often reduce the likelihood of war. Might these ties be exploitative? Of course. But not by necessity. They can also be liberating and create opportunity.

This kind of reductive sloganeering does nothing practical to tease out sensible solutions to complex problems of equitable interdependency. Beware the simple slogan, the powerful symbol*, the all-emcompassing solution, the seductive ideology. Real life is more complex than that.

*Us designers are implicit in this respect. We can be the promoters of certain memes (communicable ideas), good or bad. We create, like our carbon footprint, a memetic footprint. It's worth considering the effects of that memetic footprint.

Dan Dennett on ideology and memes at TED:
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_dangerous_memes.html
Rian Hughes
2012-01-27 16:54:20

HI Rian,

It's funny you accuse me of 'blanket simplificiation' and then propose we listen to a Biological Determinist like Dab Dennett, whose view of human beings and society is crude and reductionist, like many American philiosophers.

That aside, as it's my work and my vinyl tape you are saying makes 'sensible' people lose sympathy, let me correct you a little. All wars are over resources, no matter what flag they go under, the material reason underliying them is resources. The drive for accumulation and profit at the heart of the Capitalist system means that trade wars turn often turn into real wars, after all there has to be a reason why the US alone spends $700 billion a year on the military rather than feeding people or providing free healthcare - tp put that in perspective the UN estimates around $55 Billion would be needed to take everyone in the world out of poverty. In this century alone Capitalism has caused 2 World Wars, concentration camps, and countless other wars which most 'sensible' people were against, you'll remember the millions who demonstrated and were ignored during 2003 against the attack on Iraq.

Now, back to the slogan is it reductive? It could mean 'Capitalism will lead to war', which it does. It could also mean 'Capitalism means a war on you or society' is the Austerity drive not a war against ordinary people by the finance sector and Capitalism? What else would you call cutting benefits for disabled people while giving million pound bonuses for City bankers? It could also mean that every pound spent on bombing a country for it's Oil-and lets not forget the Oil companies are some of the biggest Capitalist companies and had their own private armies at the start of the 20th century-is a pound not spent on ediucation etc…so when this is combined with the imagery or with the other slogans like the picture above taken at Occupy LSX, this slogan although direct is layered and not at all reductive.

Real life is complex, I agree, but it's not impossible to understand or change, one thing for sure, unless you are completely blinkered is that we are living in systems that are destroying the Planet's eco systems and destroying human life, whether it be literally starving or being unemployed etc…Occupy Design is an attempt to get some organisation going to do something about this, not because Designers are the only people can do anything, but because we are part of society too, and like others we need to move and start to act collectively or else the future does not look rosy, the last time we had a depression like now was the 30s, the result of which was World War 2 and Fascism, I personally don't want that to be repeated, so in a situation where even the Financial Times is running a series called 'Capitalism in Crisis' let's not be afraid to call a spade a spade, Capitalism really does mean war, and it's time we fought back!
noel douglas
2012-01-27 18:38:37

'Fascism, Communism, Islam'
Spot the odd one out.
You could have also had any religion, sect, tribe or race, not to mention natural resources, regional influence, etc.

I'm not a huge fan of that tape myself. However, the simple slogan is by necessity a blunt tool. I'm given (or have to come up with) a slogan, shout line or heading that's deliberately provocative / reductive in order to grab people every day. They're all reductive, sometimes misleading, sometimes unapologetically stark. Graphic design is about getting attention, through grace, strength, wit or ideally all three. You've just got to hope that what you're attaching it to will warrant the attention.

Accuracy invariably implies length whilst effective graphic design should be instant. These aren't absolutes, but it's truer more often than not.

I'm really pleased the Occupy movement are expanding and I hope we see some inspiring new ideas and artwork. There isn't enough design challenging late capitalism and neo-liberal politics for my liking.

And good on Barnbrook.
Jonathan
2012-01-27 19:36:03

It is funny that straight away we see someone saying that those that seem to be putting a lot of effort into creating a debate withing the design world are labelled 'ideologists' and oddly linked to fascism and communism. It goes to show how the design environment is not open to any questioning of where its priorities lay, whether as a servant to a dominant political system blinds it to other possibilities. Life is complex and so is design which can really be a force for good in society, working for advertising is quite simple, creating markets for profit, creating an veneer of fun and desire, if that is not an ideology i dont know what is.
arthur
2012-01-27 19:58:25

Why not use the same Occupy symbol as the squatters?
James Nelson
2012-01-28 01:17:39

The Occupy Movement is NECESSARY for our citizens to expose the corruption which Big Business has infected our Government with. Every single person occupying the streets and protesting Corporations is a hero and a patriot. I was compelled to lend a hand and create some new posters for the movement which you can download for free on my artist’s blog at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2011/11/propaganda-for-occupy-movement.html
Brandt Hardin
2012-01-28 02:30:53

"Capitalism really does mean war, and it's time we fought back!"
Maybe you forgot the Communist states also are agressive towards the individuals and their liberties.

So what alternative is there to Capitalism?
Lisbon D
2012-01-28 09:19:35

Lisbon D,

did I say somewhere they weren't? Stalinism is not really a problem in the world anymore, so it shouldn't be assumed that every critique of Capitalism means advocating what was in the USSR/Eastern Bloc which actually was more like State Capitalism than genuine Communism, as Marx thought of it (workers power, direct democracy, production for need not profit), where the drive of the economy was military competition with the West, which is why the 'transition' from 'Communism' to Capitalism 20 odd years ago has seen merely a shift in wealth and power from Party officials to Oligarchs, many of whom were connected to Party structures before.

The alternatives are for us to work out togethe, through doing things like Occupy Design, of course they will probably be based on some 'genuine' small 'c' communisim, or the Commons, sharing resources as widely as possible, democraticising investment decisions etc…but who knows?

Lastly I'd say I'm bored of the crude and redictionist slogans I see everyday in the City, telling me to 'Just Do It' etc…we are facing a massive crisis that will affect ALL our futures it's time we faced up to it, and I'm pleased to say the first day of the launch, today, of Occupy Design went very well, so I'm hopeful for what we can do in the future. It would be nice if people dropped the cynicism and at least recgonised that some of us are trying to do something constructive.
noel douglas
2012-01-28 19:34:00

Is there not confusion here between a designer and an artist?

Designers create in a essentially two different capacities, one as a commercial client focused designer (the day job) and two as an individual, self serving designer/artist. An artist works purely in his or her own capacity, creative self expression!

Yes the two mix but it's a very fine balance. I would be interested to hear how Occupy Design fits into the commercial reality of design culture in the day-to-day running of an agency. After all if all designers were artists we would live in a very different world.

The objective to overhaul Capitalism is a huge undertaking, what are Occupy proposing as an alternative?

How's does Occupy Design feel about the recent celebration and knighthood of Sir Jonathan Ive?
MarkJ
2012-01-29 11:00:06

Get a bloody job.
Mat
2012-01-29 11:31:45

"So what alternative is there to Capitalism?"

http://jacobinmag.com/winter-2012/four-futures/
Martin
2012-01-29 11:42:38

I completely support the Occupy movement and deplore the actions taken by Mayor Bloomberg to clear the protests in Zuccotti Park.
However, most of us working in design and advertising have to continuously make tricky ethical decisions about the clients we work for.
Noel Douglas works in education and so is shielded from these decisions. Just to make sure I was accurate with my information, I Googled him and on his University biog, it lists that SkyTV (!!!) was one of his clients.
What a complete joke!
Bee
2012-01-30 11:32:04

Bee,

"However, most of us working in design and advertising have to continuously make tricky ethical decisions about the clients we work for."

that's the point…without organisation that can begin to create a different space, and different vision you will always be stuck in that trap, as I have been when I have worked commercially (as I still do at times), and as I did when I worked for Sky, I don't see why this makes me a joke, you cannot resolve the contradictions that Capitalism places the individual in, at the level of the individual, and I'm not a Catholic so I'm not going to be made to feel gulity about having to do things I may not like to make money.

Also if you think working in Education, with the way it is currently going shields you from this you don't know what is happening in education!

All the more reason to organise to create something better…

What are you doing to make the world better? You say you support Occupy, so are you doing anything to help or just criticising others who are trying?
noel douglas
2012-01-30 12:31:41

Noel, while I appreciate your passion, you've provided another list of oversimplifications that illustrate my point all over again:

"All wars are over resources".

No.

"Capitalism has caused 2 World Wars, concentration camps."

No.

"Capitalism will lead to war."

No.

"Depression like now was the 30s, the result of which was World War 2 and Fascism"

No.

The misstep here is the idea that the root cause of all unpleasant ideologies is economic. It's not, unless you subscribe to Marxist ideology. I would suggest that it often happens the other way around. A seductive and simplistic idea (Marxism, for example) can take hold and galvanise people to action in the name of fairness and justice, and actually deliver something else entirely - mainly because any unchecked and unaccountable power structure, whether that be class based, economic, political or ideological, will always provide the unscrupulous with opportunities to use it for their own ends and in the process cause harm to others or the environment.

I would float the simple idea that people are sometimes greedy, and any situation in which people can get away with it there will always be certain people who will.

If we could solve every political and economic issue in the world now by magic, people would still find reasons to go to war. The sheer unlikelihood of a European war being caused by the current economic situation has a lot to do with the fact that most European counties now subscribe to pluralistic secular democracy. There is no better defence against runaway ideological infection, of whatever stripe.

Elsewhere in the world, the situation is not so rosy.
Rian Hughes
2012-01-30 13:11:39

A slightly off-topic aside - I found myself literally caught in the middle of the recent riots on my home turf (West London). I went out on clean-up duty the next day, and galvanised by the community spirit, I hoped that the council might welcome some ideas that could involve locals and create some sense that we could all pull together and help out in whatever manner. So, being a designer, I designed an Ealing logo that I proposed could be sold on mugs and t-shirts to raise some money. (It has to be said, probably not very much money. But still...)

I get a letter back from the Council telling me how, in this age of cuts, did I expect them to make any use a new logo? It seems printing up a dozen mugs and t-shirts to sell in local museums and council offices was beyond their powers of imagination. Idea therefore dead in the water. If there was some community based system for any interested individual to provide useful services and find others who can do the same - a local 'Freecycle' for skills and ideas - it'd free up the potential of individuals to do useful work in their community, unfettered by unresponsive and stultifying bureaucracy. Or capitalism, for that matter.
Rian Hughes
2012-01-30 14:37:52

Dear Noel

Yes, I concede that my 'support' for Occupy has been from afar and I was not involved in any of the Occupy protests. Although, I do a lot of stuff in and outside of my work that hopefully makes the world better. You're going to have to take my word for that one!

And no, I do not work in education. But I was just highlighting the fact that having the security of a regular lecturer's salary means that you can cherry pick your outside work. Turning down Nike or Starbucks doesn't mean that the rent wont get paid.
I realise that things are tough in education at the moment (and while I wouldn't want anyone to lose their job) I do believe that there are a lot of poor Graphic Design courses offering places to anyone that can pay.

I actually applaud and admire what you do and I think that Occupy London and pressure groups like 38 degrees have been a lot more successful in implementing change in the UK, than their US counterparts. I hear that the CEOs of publicly-owned UK banks have declined to take their bonuses, due to public pressure. WOW! This would never happen in the US.

However, you working for Sky and espousing your anti-capitalist views, highlights the fact that this is not a simple black and white issue. Life is not easy.
Bee
2012-01-30 16:43:28

Bee,

let's not be silly, I worked for Sky as a freelance worker (yes I have worked in the industry for numerous 'top agencies' and smaller groups) 12 years ago, when as you say it was work or not eat, I was then an activist and was doing stuff outside work, the point about this is it is NOT about individual moral failings.

There is no point trying to play this you work for Capitalists but are an Anti-Capitalist, therefore you are a hypocrite line. We ALL have to live with Capitalism whatever are views, I cannot avoid it, the point is this, do we as citizens try and change it? Sometimes we maybe able to do this in our work (say like Ken Loach making his films), or when I do my activist work, like the Regime Change Begins At Home Cards released during the Iraq War which 30,000 people got copies of-

US version: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Regime-Change-Begins-Home-Vigilant/dp/1565849094/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1327958462&sr=8-5

But most of the time we can't, so as I say there is no point getting into petty moralistic arguments, we're not religious, it's not a matter of some kind of sin, it's about organisation.

If we can create alternative organisations that create spaces and support for all those who do want to use Design in socially/politically engaged ways then all sorts of things may become possible, including financial support, that's what people like Democracy Now do for Media, we want to do the same for Design, and I think many other people want to, too-we hope over the coming months to find and connect with those people.
noel douglas
2012-01-30 21:25:05

Rian,

I don't want to labour the point about what causes War as it's not really about Occupy Design, but your naive Idealism (in the philosophical sense) really is terrifying simplistic.

War's are over resources, since the end of the 90s our country has been involved in a succession of wars to secure oil and gas reserves, from the Balkans, through the Caspian Sea, up through Iraq and out to Afghanistan the wars follow the pipelines, the Balkans you will note is in Europe, there was a war there in the 90s. The drive for these wars is the need for Oil and Gas, some of the biggest companies in Capitalism are the Oil companies, the drive for profits/resources/land creates war, it's nonsense to say it doesn't the evidence is there.

Capitalism is a world system, Islamic countries are Capitalist, Fascism was Capitalism, Siemens, VW, Mercedes, IBM, IG Farben, Bayer, Coca-Cola/Fanta all profited from Slave Labour from the Camps or buliding the Camps, the Camps themselves were modelled on Industry, which is why the Holocaust is so sickening, Fascism itself was one response by the Establishment to destroy the threat of Workers Revolution. Capitalism also created the Nuclear Bomb.

Lastly your understanding of human history is shocking. Wars happen in Class societies they are about grabbing the surplus, Class societies have existed for about 10,000 years, out of the 200,000 odd we have been on the planet, that's a tiny fraction of the time we've been here, for most of the time humans lived as hunter gatherers, we know how they lived because there are still some tribes on the Earth who live like they did, many all of these tribes, have no organised violence, no words for property, no concept of what it means to 'own' something, they can't fight each other because they rely on each other to survive (this doesn't mean there isn't anger or unhappiness or people falling out but that is different from Armies and Police Forces) But they are us, we carry that genetic inheritance with us, and if we were able to move beyond Class society there would be no basis for War, as there isn't for them. Reasons come from material circumstances, not out of the sky. Private property is the root cause of violence and greed, the word 'property' comes from the French, Priveé - to deprive of.

Lastly, people in the 20s and 30s thought there wouldn't be a war again, and I hope you're right, but take a look around Europe, the Far Right is moving (Eastern Europe, Hungary, Italy), and democracy is being swept aside as Plutocracies of Bankers take over (think Italy, Greece), one thing for sure is the near future will be turbulent, all the more reason to get Occupy Design going to try in our small corner of society to make things better together.
noel douglas
2012-01-30 21:50:01

I would like to see the Occupy movement develop an aesthetic and language that the rest of the design industry could not co-opt, since it plainly communicates something that is not marketable. Until that happens, design from the Occupy movement fails. Success is possible and necessary.

I wish to attend Occupy Design, but current commitments prevent.
miles newlyn
2012-01-31 10:08:39

I would like to see the Occupy movement develop an aesthetic and language that the rest of the design industry could not co-opt, since it plainly communicates something that is not marketable. Until that happens, design from the Occupy movement fails. Success is possible and necessary.

I wish to attend Occupy Design, but current commitments prevent.
miles newlyn
2012-01-31 10:50:09

Interesting discussion above. In terms of design's contribution to the 'cause', however, I remain unconvinced as to what are essentially protest graphics' effectiveness in shifting opinion.

I would argue that design is most effective when it makes things easier for people – whether that's easier to understand information, use a service, make contacts with people etc. Protest graphics like those shown above serve to warn people and visually stand in their way rather than make things easier for anyone; I see a slogan and I think 'slogan' (with the implication of a lengthy agenda that I can't be bothered to try to understand).

If, however, I were to see a well-designed freecycle network (to use the example Rian gave) that offered an easy to use alternative other to capital-driven options I might be inclined to use it. Wikipedia's a fairly good example of a user-centric idea that's non-profit, designed for purpose and easy to use that as a result has superseded traditional encyclopedia formats.

Capital-driven companies use designers to make things as easy and desirable as possible for people to use their services because they know if it's easier people will use them and spend more money. Rather than authoring posters that might put people off, why not use design to make the alternatives the easier choice?
Ed
2012-01-31 11:16:19

Hi Noel

It's interesting you describe my comments as "terrifyingly simplistic", as what I am doing is actually calling for a more nuanced view; quite the opposite. As you can guess, I don't subscribe to your purely economic far-Left narrative of world history, which has been dismantled convincingly (for me, at least) many times. In the interests of that more nuanced view, let's examine one of your statements which I'd personally describe as "terrifyingly simplistic" :

"Capitalism has caused 2 World Wars, concentration camps."

For this to be so, we'd have to ignore the influence of fascism, the role of Hitler and the Nazi's antisemitic ideology and propaganda machine. Don't you think all that might have just had *something* to do with the concentration camps? To place the blame entirely at the door of capitalism is to fold a complex confluence of ideas and movements into one oversimplistic catch-all "capitalism is the root of every evil" philosophy. This is exactly the oversimplification that gets the debate nowhere, and alienates large sections of the population that have an enormous sympathy with some of the Occupy movement's aims.

ANY interregnum will create opportunities for certain individuals or movements, both good and bad, to flourish - those interregnums need not be economic (ie a recession or depression as in the '30s) but could equally be caused by a natural disaster like a flood or famine, or a war or a revolution. Unethical people will take their opportunities where they can.

I'd also imagine you designed the tape on a Mac, one of the fruits of capitalism. Steve Jobs coudn't have revolutionised our design industry without a bit of capital.

You position yourself on the fringe politically with a statement like "Private property is the root cause of violence", and of course you're at liberty to do so, but your sloganeering alienates those in the centre and even - yes - on the right of the political spectrum who also have a very genuine disgust with the way a banking elite have contributed to the ruining of the economy and in the process lined thieir own pockets. Those from the wider political spectrum and the broad support they can offer is the best opportunity to engender real change to our system, and that should not be wasted. This is the populist support the Occupy movement could tap into - if only you don't alienate them with these simplistic catch-all slogans.

I have some capitalist work to do for The Man now. Must pay those bills. Friends?
Rian Hughes
2012-01-31 11:47:46

Some excellent points made by Ed. I have tried to use my local Freecycle, and have yet to succeed in posting my items on the boards since the website is so badly coded and designed. Instead of improving this Occupy Design now has a logo :-)
miles newlyn
2012-01-31 13:30:25

Rian made it all very clear by introducing The Man.
I have spent years working for him, just like millions of others, and sincerely hope that the current financial upheaval can mean that The Man might just need to start negotiating rather than only ever demanding.
We need to remember that we are very much the majority, and those that call the shots, those who actually hold the financial sway, are a very, very small minority.
The various Occupy movements, however flawed, are an important and entirely necessary part of what is changing right now, and if designers are going to contribute effectively, the work has to be hard-hitting and shit-hot.
Willie Ryan
2012-01-31 13:36:34

Currently "The Man" (DC Comics) is getting me to draw cute Batgirl, Wonder Girl and Supergirl designs for merchandise. I am currently loving The Man. (if that doesn't sound a bit gay).
Rian Hughes
2012-01-31 15:21:45

I love London. They have so much respect for communication design and realize that, done well, it can make or bread a movement.
Michelle McCormack
2012-01-31 16:38:55

Hi Rian,

just because we disagree with words does not mean we can't be friends! Two quick things:

First:
As for WW2, as I said it was still Capitalism under Fascism, the causes of which were the aftermath of World War 1 and the way Germany was punished for that, and then the collapse the Capitalist economy in the 30s that created the mad inflation etc that gave Hitler ground to grow, World War 1 was, of course an Imperialist war for territory i.e. resources.

Your wrong on Capital/Private Property not being the root problem, as it's Capital that determines our lives, after all, the way we produce does shape everything else, you can't think about design if you cant eat etc, this should be self-evident.

Second:
Occupy Design is more than me! I was defending my work in the pic above, don't be confused the work in the pics is from the camp generally, not Occupy Design, which has as yet not created work. The idea behind the whole Occupy movement is to try unite many different sorts of people, and we will try in Occupy Design, no problem with more centre-left orientated people being involved, although I disagree that the Right can be part of it, it can't.

Occupy Design is not just about protest graphics but we hope will encompass ALL design, we have product designers involved already and Design writers as just two examples.

Lastly you may joke about 'The Man', think it's all rather funny, and scoff at us simpletons, but let me remind you and all the other cynics, the IEA, hardly a hotbed of militant left-wing activity, says we are now 5 years away from runaway Climate Change, now they maybe wrong it maybe 10, or 20 years, but it's coming, if you seriously think carrying on in a business as usual mode is going to make sure everything is ok you're a braver man than I. And drawing pics of Batgirl is not going to help you when the Thames floods London as the Sea levels rise.

Consider us the Canaries in the mine…
noel douglas
2012-01-31 20:06:41

Does Rian not understand that Hitler came to power in Germany at a time of economic hardship when the German currency was so devalued that the working wage was worthless no matter how much people were paid? Anti-semetism had a lot to do with envy as the Jewish community appeared at the time to be relatively wealthy.
Jayne
2012-02-04 19:54:33

It will be interesting to see how this goes - arguments aside - as the communications and design industry generally works to provide organisations and businesses with a more professional face, or a more apt way of speaking to their audience. For a grass roots movement such as occupy, it would be inappropriate by definition to "brand" it in the usual way.

Perhaps there is a role for designers in creating posters and banners to communicate the messages of the movement, but the real design challenge is to address the system which is failing us at the moment. Redesigning this is the task, and, despite all the lofty assertions I had at university that design can change the world, I'm not sure I, as a graphic designer, can really change anything by designing a poster.
Mike
2012-02-05 18:27:41

It's not a poster that's going to change the world, but it's a start.

What's needed is the polar opposite of 'keep calm & carry on'.
Curator
2012-02-06 12:06:16

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