CR Blog
Many designers are outraged by the growing number of spec and crowdsourcing sites offering logo work for extremely low prices. But what kind of service do these sites really supply? London design studio Mat Dolphin decided to try and find out...
One of the services we offer as a design agency, write Mat Dolphin's Tom Actman and Phil Cook, is logo design. No surprises then when we recently stumbled upon another agency offering the same service. So far, so average - the majority of graphic design agencies throughout the world do exactly the same. The difference with this one, however, was the costing of their work.
$42. That simple. For $42 you can get a logo designed with two rounds of amends and a number of different files formats sent to you. Sceptical of the quality of the work and a little surprised at the pricing structure and business model, we shared the find with our loyal Twitter following in our usual measured and level-headed style...
In short, the ever opinionated 'design community' weren't too happy about the idea of logos being punted out like Happy Meals. The general consensus was that the time it takes to research, brainstorm, design, develop, artwork and subsequently amend a logo of a relatively decent standard could not be sufficiently covered by such a small cost. This got us thinking. We decided to conduct an experiment. Googling 'cheap logos' gave us plenty of options for 'quality logo design services for a fixed low cost' so we pulled on our fictional overalls and got in touch with a company offering said service to enquire on behalf of our newly-imagined company - 'Dolphin Plumbing Services'.
Commissioning a cheap logo simply to sneer about how we reckon we could have done a better job would be too easy and not achieve a huge amount. Instead, we wanted to approach the company as if we had no experience or interest in graphic design and see what the process is like for the 'average punter'. Also, how the experience differs from the service we offer. We made a point of letting them lead us and not getting all 'designer-y' with them. This wasn't an opportunity to lecture them about kerning, for this experiment we didn't care about the quality of design, we simply wanted to explore the process of purchasing a logo to stick on the side of our non-existent van.
The first company we contacted offered, among plenty of other things, bespoke logo designs and unlimited revisions (which we thought was rather excessive) for only £8.99+VAT. Bargain! It seemed too good to be true and, drum roll... it was - they are yet to return our emails. Not a good start.
Undeterred, we found another company offering a similar service. Yet again, they offered unlimited revisions, so we thought we'd give them a fair amount of feedback to deal with, nothing too unreasonable, just enough to get our money's worth. They also promised a 1-3 day turnaround for all artwork and amends, so we decided to hold them to that and chase them if they were late. Dolphin Plumbing Services - firm but fair. They were slightly more pricey at £25 but we thought it was worth it in the name of investigative journalism, so we sent the email.
The very same day, we received a response asking for payment! If nothing else, they were quick, and at least they'd replied. We eagerly handed-over our bank details (without any guarantees, to the random internet company we'd never heard of two hours previously) and waited to see what happened next.
Less than an hour later, we received an email granting us access to our own personal account. We were told to wait for 48 hours before receiving the initial designs. So far the process hadn't been too painful, we'd done our bit and the real work was now down to their designers. All that was left to do was wait...
Two days later, an email with the subject 'Your first design samples' was sitting our inbox - the experiment had started to get interesting. We logged into the account and saw these six designs (below) awaiting our feedback.
The quality of the logos is something we're going to comment on later, but regardless of how good the initial designs are, we have a starting point. Regarding the first of our unlimited revisions, we wanted to ensure what we were requesting was reasonable and similar to the kind of feedback the company would usually get. We weren't interested in testing their patience for the sake of it. Our first round of feedback was as follows:
Once again, we sat tight, staring at our inbox waiting for what could potentially become the brand new Dolphin Plumbing Services logo. Can you feel the tension building? This time we only had to wait one day! Another email arrived letting us know that all we had to do was log into our account and we would find the latest logo designs waiting for us - we did, and they were!
This time around our feedback was pretty simple:
This didn't prove too much of a test for our new design slaves, who responded with the changes, yet again, in just one day. Here's what they came back with.
We were getting to the point where the discussions had gone far enough to get a reasonable idea of the process and it was time for us to wrap this baby up. We issued one final round of feedback, for good measure:
Which resulted in the following. Ladies and gentlemen, allow us to proudly present, the logo for the finest fictitious plumbing outfit since Super Mario Brothers - Dolphin Plumbing Services:
Job done.
The feedback about the colour of the circle had been completely ignored but we pretended not to notice and responded with a grateful approval and requested the logo as high resolution JPGs, PDFs and vector EPS / AI files. These were promptly sent the next day. One techy point to make - the vector logos hadn't been outlined and there were no fonts accompanying the files. This means that if we did in fact have a van or signage in need of vinyl lettering, we'd be a bit stuck. We would guess the vast majority of customers using these services wouldn't have the knowledge or inclination to specifically request fonts, let alone own the software to discover they were missing. It seems like the company we used fell at the last hurdle somewhat but perhaps the rush to complete the job and move onto the next artwork carried out at light-speed is to blame for the oversight.
Anyway, the experiment had concluded, now for the analysis.
The easiest thing here would be to tear the design work apart and criticise how it simply wasn't very good. It wasn't. But it seems as if that would be over simplifying the point. We paid an incredibly small amount for what must've taken somebody, somewhere, a reasonable amount of time to do. Even a competent designer bashing out the work as quickly as possible would've had to spend a while producing six logos with three sets of revisions. There's also the time it takes to read our emails, save the amended files, upload them to our account and let us know they're there. It's impossible to say how long that would've taken (and we're under no illusion that the lovely emails we received were personally written to us) but was this time and labour all covered by our measly £25?
As designers, our time, creativity, experience and technical skills are the only things we're actually selling. And we're not surprised that how anyone with the right software can do what we do and sell it for a fraction of the cost proves irritating and perhaps even insulting to the majority of designers. But does the plumber who simply wants something to stick on a business card really care when he can get the job done for such a small amount of money? The process we went through was quick, easy and required very little hassle on our part. Once we found a company who actually responded to us, all we had to do was pay, look at designs and tell them what we wanted them to change. Assuming the role of someone with limited knowledge and opinions on typography, layout and colour, the service offered to us was more than agreeable for what we paid.
However, there is still the angry mob of designers to deal with. First off, it's worth thinking about what they're actually angry about. We don't think it's because their cover's been blown and they can no longer charge huge amounts of cash for knocking up a quick logo. The issue, in our opinion, is more the fact that taking shortcuts that allow the work to be produced for a sum as small as £25 both creates work of a lower quality and lowers the value of what we do in the eyes of those outside of the design industry.
Like many other products and services, it's never going to be too hard to find a cheaper option. But, as the painfully obvious saying goes, you get what you pay for. Buy a cheap car, it'll break down more often. Buy a cheap meal, it won't taste very nice. Buy a cheap haircut... you get the idea. If Phil the plumber decides to go for the £25 logo purely based on cost, his service simply won't look premium. Maybe this won't be a problem as many of his customers aren't going to care too much about the typography when their kitchen is flooding, but design matters, and we're sure we've all instantly disregarded companies based solely on the look of their logo, website or shop-frontage. It's similar to pizza menus on your doormat - you're not going to pay much but you know it won't be fine-dining.
Maybe he doesn't want his service to look premium. He's a down-to-earth guy making an honest living for a fair price and he wants his logo to reflect that. Fair enough. But at no point throughout the process were we asked any questions about this. It was far too easy to let the designers get on with designing what they thought was right for a company they knew next-to-nothing about. Without this knowledge, can you really create something of any value, or are you simply choosing random fonts and adding clichéd clipart images based on the name of the company?
So, the design is never to going be considered at any great length - because there simply isn't the time to do so - and there's a good chance the final design may not be appropriate for its purpose.
The end result? Cheap design that looks cheap and is less effective.
But is there a place in the industry for logo design being sold in this way? Unfortunately, we think the answer is yes. People or companies who aren't particularly interested in the way they present themselves can't be blamed for spending as little money as possible on a service they don't see value in. Is it damaging to the industry as a whole? Again, I'm afraid the answer is yes. Poor design can never be a good thing, for obvious reasons.
So what happens now? Do we rise up and fight back against these companies? Do we boycott? Do we drop our prices to £20 a logo, no questions asked? Feel free, but we won't be joining you. A far better defence is to produce well-considered, fairly-priced design that includes the client in the process, asks the right questions, challenges the brief, considers the problem from the clients perspective and provides an effective solution. This, done well, is the only thing that can differentiate what we do from the 'lowest price gets the job' outfits.
The conclusion of our experiment? You get what you pay for. The important thing to remember is to make your service good value, regardless of how much it costs.
Tom and Phil
matdolphin.com
Follow Mat Dolphin on Twitter here
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96 Comments
So thats where Gumtree got their logo...
Fascinating process to have a glimpse into. Anybody (willing to admit to it) have experience working in one of these places? It'd be really interesting to get an insiders opinion.
2012-01-25 10:36:31
The problem nowadays is that everyone is struggling to survive and if they can get something on the cheap they will do, including a quick logo design. Anyone can have a go at designing a quick logo with the range of sometimes cheap software available today. Of course the finished design is terrible but if the client is happy then what is the problem? The problem is that when I get an enquiry, they expect me to spend many hours researching their market, coming up with countless different solutions and then they say they have a budget of only around £100!!! So, out of that I have to pay all my bills, pay myself a decent wage and still try to keep my business going. Not sure on what the answer is but it needs to be addressed soon.
2012-01-25 10:37:26
Enthralling. Great article guys, well researched and well balanced. I don't think many people could disagree with your conclusions… not really anything else to say on the issue… so I won't.
2012-01-25 10:49:58
I don't think there is really much to be worried about here for the design community. I think everyone at one point or another has done a job for a friend or a family friend who 'just wants something for the side of the van' but doesn't have money to pay for it and wants a million and one changes. Ultimately, these sorts of customers don't want a clever idea or something that will seperate them from the crowd... they want to look like every other company in their sector. These jobs almost always end up not being worth the fee they command and are probably better off being sent off to someone who will knock it out for no money at all and are prepared to be at the beck and call of every alteration the customer requires, which generally when they aren't paying for them, can run into the hundreds quite easily...
2012-01-25 10:50:55
This is a great article.
Any chance you could link to http://antispec.com in the article?
Also would you be happy for me to include a link back to this article in the footer of AntiSpec?
This isn't a SEO hustle, honest.
Many thanks.
2012-01-25 11:01:10
Interesting article. I looked into the crowdsourcing route a couple of years ago and did a test by uploading logos produced by a free logo generating website. I uploaded logos that were absolutely horrible but I got feedback from the 'clients' requesting amends. To be avoided - not very bright people to work with.
Jack
2012-01-25 11:04:48
In answer to my question – David Airey kindly pointed me towards some of the comments here, specifically: http://www.logodesignlove.com/cheap-logo-services#comment-39669
2012-01-25 11:13:30
I applaud your experiment and mostly agree with the conclusion but I have one doubt...
You said:
“The end result? Cheap design that looks cheap and is less effective.”
But is it really less effective? How do we measure that? If great design wins awards and recognition within the design community is it more effective? There are plenty of successful businesses with what could be considered cheap looking logos...Ikea, The GAP, even Google with that drop shadow...
I just wish I had more tools to argue the need for great design when I sometimes feel it really is just a question of personal taste.
2012-01-25 11:17:57
Great article as always wondered how these sites worked, I've only once encountered someone mentioning this before in a meeting and my sharp response was 'use them then, see what happens and stop wasting our time'. They used us.
2012-01-25 11:18:02
Well researched and balanced article. I think that us designers are always going to feel annoyed and frustrated by this sort of service, but this sort of thing has been causing havoc through the world of online design for a VERY long time.
I DO believe you get what you pay for, but I also think that we think TOO much about stuff (because we're designers) and feel that everyone judges a company by the quality of its logo. In these modern times of social media, there are far more ways in which a business can build a reputation without relying on an expensive brand.
2012-01-25 11:20:16
There seems to be some confusion about the service Tom and Phil tested. From what I can tell it's not spec work, or crowdsourcing, but rather the use of a cheap design service where the client pays for the work of what's likely to be one designer (or Illustrator/Photoshop operator).
Regardless, very nice to see a well-balanced account, and the remark quoted below is spot-on.
"A far better defence is to produce well-considered, fairly-priced design that includes the client in the process, asks the right questions, challenges the brief, considers the problem from the clients perspective and provides an effective solution."
2012-01-25 11:23:57
When the Gap re-brand proved unpopular they crowdsourced the work with some hilarious results. Submitting logos to crowdsourcing sites can be an entertaining opportunity to upload spoof logos and engage in a bit of banter in your downtime.
Antispec sound like a good cause.
Robin
2012-01-25 11:25:58
For £25 the service wasn't really bad, I mean yeah the end product is bad but the client would probably be very happy with it. Unfortunate as that is.
The main victim in all this isn't the designer (anyone really want to spend all day doing logos for plumbers?) but the public and the country as a whole, they're the ones who are going to have to look at this shit plastered across shop fronts and vans.
Draplin sums it up well here http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=b9N3yj3gOck
2012-01-25 11:33:14
I think we have all had clients like that cez and I now know where I'll be sending them in future. :)
2012-01-25 11:34:10
It’s a good thing!
I don’t believe that a £25 logo is something to grumble about. It’s fair game. For those who have a limited budget or who attribute little value to their logo’s presence and message, it’s an option that would not otherwise exist. It’s more like a stepping stone than a final solution.
I am already thinking of a few cases where a low budget logo would improve a small business greatly where it’s just not possible to justify a larger budget. It will however prepare them for the journey to understanding the impact of brand, and the power branding can wield, which can’t be sold so cheaply.
Some companies will always be driven by cost and not even have visibility on what a full branding process would provide (individuality, message, brand values, tone of voice, market placement, etc.), these companies may never use a brand agency. but, what's the problem with someone providing them with a service? Should they not have access to an alternative source? Of course they should.
All agencies must be able to justify the value they provide and therefore cost compared to the ever changing marketplace.
For those businesses who can extract the value from a larger investment the work will still to be there, and worth it.
2012-01-25 12:35:12
Is there a case for arguing that clients who want a quick, cheap logo (and only care to a point what it looks like) are better served by using these services and designers looking to produce more considered work are better served by not having to deal with them? Sort've like a client buying Tesco's basics vs premium brands?
In my experience it's been a bloody nightmare to deal with people who only want to pay say £50 for a logo design, and they've largely been completely unreceptive to any attempts to convince them that maybe they ought to put a bit more thought into it. It's a waste of time. You can up-sell someone who's willing to be convinced, but not those who want it quick and cheap thank-you-very-much (contrary to the design myth that every brief and every client can result in wonderful work).
2012-01-25 12:55:45
Great article.
Design can be practical, cheap and consumable, these logos sit here.
Creativity has diacritic powers, and fortunately, this service costs a little extra.
2012-01-25 13:09:39
I say to any good designer who is frustrated by this: Would you really want to be designing logos for the sort of people who pay £25 for a logo? From personal experience I've found that such business owners end up getting you to create something as low quality as the one in this post because it's what they are after anyway.
Of course there's a place for this sort of design just as there's a place for Primark for your average Joe Blogs from Croydon yet Armani for Mr Double-Barrel from Kensington.
2012-01-25 13:12:46
Hiya,
Not bad for £25, and in less than a week it seems? I think its a question of priority. I have know people to literally start a business on £10, for them every cost counts. Ultimately its about measurement. For something like branding this is hard to measure (its hard to count clients who never contacted you who would have etc etc) however in other areas of design (eg, web, leafleting etc) its well known that what works (eg, makes the client money) is not what many designers would consider quality. Ultimately its all about market fit.
If your advertising a pizza shop with an alright but not great leaflet and it appeals to you target market, then the designer has done their job. Often 'designers' are not the target market and what we think is 'quality' does measurably worse against what we consider rubbish.
Finally, its also about gateways. A £25 low risk move as a first experience commissioning design is a good thing IMHO. Perhaps in the future they will commission more work and over time understand the value of design better. Ultimately, they are someone's client so they are helping to pay someones bills. Someone did some design and hopefully learned something. Bonus.
J&L
2012-01-25 13:25:45
We complain when a client pays £25 for a logo appropriate to their business but quite happily use wordpress templates, royalty-free images and free fonts to keep our own costs down. It's tough out there!
2012-01-25 13:28:37
then again, would you expect clients to pay for your service knowing you've wasted a few hours this week playing with these ideas? Get back to your desk and do some real work.
It's simple supply and demand. What you supply you demand too much for. Another company can do it at a lower rate because polished designs that work on several platforms and upload faster just isn't a problem for most. It would be nice if everyone could afford it, but business is tough.
I would agree that they are selling themselves short and should spend even a small amount of time thinking. But I would also suggest that if you have a client who doesn't really need much more than this and your fees are significantly higher, you have just placed yourselves in a category with the bankers, and we all love those!
2012-01-25 13:37:57
first off — loved this experiment.
If people are buying design at any level they understand (to some degree) the value of design. Much like anything, your first buy isn't always your best buy, but it let's you know something about what to buy next.
Plumbers aren't going to knock on pentagrams door asking for a logo... nor should they, it's inappropriate. Cheap logo's fill a gap in the market and the only designers that should be worried are those charging top dollar for tripe.
2012-01-25 13:39:47
I think that the biggest issue for clients commissioning design, is not knowing what they need. Usually they shop around for a logo, not understanding that they need a brand identity tool kit. They see successful brand identities, and think that the application process was free, and just happened. We've spent months on application, in contrast to developing the actual mark itself which can amount to days thinking and developing a direction for the identity is very time consuming... and if like these companies who sell logo design for £40 that's fine. This was an interesting experiment, I was impressed by how smooth the process was, maybe because so little was spent there was a guilt factor and a feeling of not wanting to give them to much of a hard time... our clients spend so much more with us, that they sometimes feel the need to give us a hard time and try and get as much renditions or versions until they exhaust the process, and then they feel happy!! What are other designers views on the cost of brand identity and application, large figures and banded around in the media when a new logo is unveiled, but that figure isn't reflective of this process in this blog, it's the whole process identity creation, and it's further application, including the brand guidelines and kitchen sink.... distilled down it would be interesting to know how much agencies would charge for just a single mark...!
2012-01-25 14:03:30
Well done guys. Great to see someone follow up there opinion in 140 characters or less by fully investigating the topic through. Applaud. Overall I think that there probably is a place for 'design' of this kind just as michelin star restaurants and fast food can co-exist and Aston Martins and Kia's (no offence Kia drivers) can share the same roads. With any product or service there will always be a top level and a base level and this is designs base level. It is not a benchmark and certainly nowhere near that standard middle line and above that most of us would hope to operate but it at least gives us somewhere to send all the clients without budgets now! Good work chaps and all the best with Dolphin Plumbing Services I know I would hire them.
2012-01-25 14:39:19
Very interesting article about your experiment into design cheaper than yours. As an astrologer who charges a fair amount for a consultation, I know that people may decide to order computer generated reports instead of coming to me and they get some of the same information but what's missing is me, not just the personal touch but the ability to synthesize the info. There are always levels of need to go with the price paid. It may be a sad fact but a local plumber may not need a gorgeous logo as much as a huge conglomerate which will be impressing more clients with higher standards. Sometimes we want to grab a burger on the fly at McDonalds (and yes regret it later) and sometimes a good meal is order. So I think it's not such a bad thing that these people (probably students etc) are selling something cheaply that you could do better. That way the truck isn't hand lettered or done on Photoshop by the plumber himself. By the way, I liked many of the choices, did think the dolphin was cute but liked the last one best, sort of spunky. When all my pipes here were changed the plumber was called Adee-do. What the hell does that mean? Is it Adee and does he do? I never found out. Your dolphin logo was nicer than his.
2012-01-25 14:41:14
I'm not a designer in any way, I followed a link on a mate's facebook page but I have to say it's very interesting what is happening in your industry.
Someone out there is going to make a shedload of money combining the two concepts by possibly offering a tranched level of design. What I mean is you can offer the £25 Logo, the £75 logo, the £150 logo up to, I dunno, £1,000. Possibly increasing the price for every additional colour an/or feature used in the logo design.
I would go as far as to spin the "you get what you pay for" around to "the more you pay the more you get..." That's possibly where the industry might go next?
2012-01-25 14:53:36
excellent article MD — some good food for thought. A quote I like regarding price talks
"If you don't like my professional prices, hire an amateur and come back to me in 6 months"
Don't drop your price.
2012-01-25 15:20:03
Firstly, well done guys on a well thought through project and write up.
"The main victim in all this isn't the designer (anyone really want to spend all day doing logos for plumbers?) but the public and the country as a whole, they're the ones who are going to have to look at this shit plastered across shop fronts and vans."
Agree, but how many owners etc think of their audience in that way? In truth very few, I know when I work with business owners they are too wrapped up in their own stuff and when considering the design its for themselves only. As I mention, I design for 1,000 pairs of eyes, they design for one, their own.
Also its a bit like football. If you don't really understand it you don't know there are different levels of design capabilities (professional v amateur as mentioned). So you can't tell the difference between watching a game at Stamford Bridge or Hackney Marshes, at its most basic its the same. 11 men v 11 men kicking a ball.
2012-01-25 15:38:08
Good read, this is why the design industry needs a body to (dont want to use the word lobby it sounds so dirty), but champion the benefits of good design, to governments, companies and most importantly the public. Most big companies know of its importance but its Joes public, (the businessmen of the future) and small businesses who need to better understand the benefits of good design.
Also a good reason why young designers, like myself, need to push into more specialist and technical practices that are harder to crowdsource. High end 3D, Animation, Coding etc. Diversify to survive guys.
Plus hello Chris I like how you found our lovely blog and got stuck in.
2012-01-25 16:09:47
Thanks for this - a very interesting insight.
I've often wondered if these offers were some kind of scam, but clearly there are people out there genuinely making money delivering this level of work. No doubt there are hundred of clip-art templates being thrown together and re-used over and over. May have to run a follow up test for Dolphin Landscape Gardening and see if the same few Flippers pop up out of a pond!
Still, if there wasn't a market for it, they wouldn't be in business. Clients who value a more considered end to end service, are usually those who have budgeted for it. Had you been more demanding with your list of revisions, the end result likely have been different (which would also be understandable). Well done for resisting the temptation to push this experiment down that avenue.
Even in a worst case scenario, it is still only 25 quid lost. I've wasted more than that on a bad haircut, and there's no binning one of those...
2012-01-25 16:53:19
A great read Tom/Phil,
Having been through something similar recently, where a client came to us for a price for a logo for their online ecommerce site. We submitted our estimate based on the initial face to face meeting and the objectives it had to fulfil and was happy that they promptly accepted, placing the work with us.
Having supplied several logos for approval and after 3 rounds of development (which was pre-agreed) we settled on a design before the Christmas break.
Reconveying after the holidays we were greeted by an email stating that, “We’ve decided against using your logo and have had one created online, using similar elements to your original but more to my partners liking.” And for the princely sum of 50TL (Turkish Lira), roughly £17.
They paid us for all work done, and we parted our ways and for arguments sake the logo they had created was 0.5% similar to the one we developed.
So my point is this. If there’s people out there happy to pay for it (twice) then so be it, but I’m not loosing any sleep.
2012-01-25 16:57:02
Thank you to each and every one of you that has read, shared and commented on the post — it's genuinely amazing to spark debate and get designers talking about a subject close to our hearts.
For us the reason for conducting this experiment was not simply to put down someone else's work (we could all have guessed the results without seeing the final logo), but to raise awareness about design education. The design industry is very tight-knit and more often than not we don't stand back and talk about the more important audience: our clients and their needs.
There will always be a need for cheaper options, less informed work and quick solutions, but that doesn't have to undermine your own ability or work. What should be taken from this experiment is the need to educate and explain to clients the benefits of spending wisely. Design is an investment, and the more we do to communicate that, the less we'll hear about £25 logos.
Cheers,
Tom and Phil.
2012-01-25 17:34:42
Its better than the Google logo :)
2012-01-25 17:36:43
Hi Tom and Phil!
Any chance you could whip up a Dolphin Plumbing logo yourself to give the article some perspective?
Loved it, well done.
- Chester
2012-01-25 17:53:47
@ Chester, as they said they would have to at least further fully understand the needs of the client to come up with a nice design. The client being them that could lead to some amusing emails being sent back and forth to themselves.
2012-01-25 18:01:31
Hi Tom and Phil!
Any chance you could whip up a Dolphin Plumbing logo yourself to give the article some perspective?
Loved it, well done.
- Chester
2012-01-25 18:36:57
I would have liked to see your version of the logo at the end of the article.
2012-01-25 19:05:07
Considering how crap some of these ridiculously priced designs cost (ie London 2012 Olympics logo), you cant base quality over money. Also, you need to remember as designers were critisise designs thoroughly. The general public is not really gonna give a damn in most cases, which is why places that are dirt cheap thrive so much. Start out businesses in this day and age can not afford to pay a huge amount for a first design. Later on if they succeed maybe, which is why so many change their logo later on.
I've seen a similar design of the 4th logo minus the swoosh done by a colleague of mine that charged quite a bit.
2012-01-25 20:45:11
So... what's the difference between that £25 Dolphin Plumbing logo above and the Ski Squirrel branding in your portfolio? Pretty much the same solution isn't it?
Only kidding ; )
Fascinating article and great work.
2012-01-25 22:31:57
A nice read indeed. Loved the article and thanks for sharing your experience by doing this experiment. One might ask if £25 is enough for all the trouble they went through to satisfy you as the client.
Well, for the most part, a lot of these companies outsource the design labor to places like India, China, or any other cheap labor countries. When you think that the average person makes $500 a year in countries like these, I'm sure £25 covers the cost of getting their cheap labor.
It's a shame, really. Aside from promoting cheap labor, it also devalues our industry but as your article concludes our job is to preach our value and validate that value through our services and the expertize we bring to the table as professional designers.
My instincts tell me that this may get even worse, as technology enhances, it will give the power to just about anyone to think they can do anything for themselves with DIY software at minimal costs. Currently, we're sort of almost there. Think of when we come up with the technology to design a website and simply 'export' our design as it gets coded for us at the click of a button. Web developers would have a melt down as a lot of them would no longer be needed!
2012-01-26 00:22:30
moonpig, confused.com, google, funkypigeon, pepsi, youtube.. could all be 25 quid logos.
being naff seems to work these days..
2012-01-26 00:53:08
Great insight through a 'real-world' example of the process in full…hats off and thank you for taking the time and effort to undertake this exercise! Not sure you should expect to be given the fonts along with a logo however, licensing laws prohibit the distribution (unless free and/or allowed to be distributed so long as you don't try and sell them etc.) of many typefaces….assuming that as a premium quality designer you'll be using premium-quality fonts. It's also a goodway to ensure that a client doesn't try and emulate your work (badly) to create the rest of the van's signage and given that the client is happy they'll come back to you for artwork for other items such as signage, POS, stationery and literature. This enable the designer to retain a degree of control over the brand identity, create guidelines and ensure consistency.
As you indicate there's not necessarily a right or wrong way to go about commissioning a logo, only (in most cases) a clearly inherent benefit and value to paying more more.
2012-01-26 09:35:48
I think a lot of the value of premium branding is the confidence and sense of equity that it instils in the client. My team always have a chuckle when I attribute the design business (and especially new business) as the dating game. Sure, you could probably find a girl (or boy) wearing primark trakkies riding around in a bashed up Nissan. You're just not going to feel good about it. In fact you probably wouldn't have a clue anyway.
Then you compare that to someone with fine tastes, who understand style - that seems effortless. You know they spent a fortune to look that good, but it's very hard to put a finger on it.
Fortunately, for a premium studio that's how it rolls. Our clients can see the difference, no matter what the man on the street sees. It subconsciously feels right. What is more, they have themselves invested in the process and have, with the agency created equity.
It's the same as how you feel when you are wearing something really expensive. It gives you self belief, confidence and the power to exceed. Quite different to a £25 suit I should think.
2012-01-26 09:40:32
Fast food burgers are no comparison to a real burger. But yet I consume them on occasion.
2012-01-26 10:36:09
Top article boys!
2012-01-26 12:35:32
If someone out there can manage to eat earning £12.50 an hour, good luck to them.
2012-01-26 12:39:28
Mycroburst are the worst culprit of this - link not included for obvious reasons, but this is their strap:
Receive more than 100 concepts from over 30,000 designers!
2012-01-26 12:44:58
It's the same in music production, you have guys working in their bedroom putting samples together and asking a fragment of a normal budget.
Do you get a good jingle or musictrack then?
I don't think so, A soundtrack has to reflect the identity of a brand, it's necessary to know the history, the goals, the vision of a brand or company.
Just talking to people can give you on a total different idea.
The problem is that everybody has access to the tools, anybody can think their a designer, or a photographer or a musician.
There's a fantastic documentary on that, check it out.
http://www.presspauseplay.com/entries/126-presspauseplay-online/
2012-01-26 12:45:24
Looking at the originals they returned, I think you biased the article by choosing the tackiest logo to go with in the beginning and then making a comment about the clip art dolphin
I don't think they're great, but if I was a plumber, I wouldn't be looking to spend more than 25 quid on a logo, in fact, I would be more likely to get "a mate" to do it for free
2012-01-26 13:00:06
Now let's see what you would produce for £25 and we can compare the value
2012-01-26 13:05:03
£25 is not a lot in the UK but in other parts of the world it's a large sum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country
2012-01-26 13:11:44
I think this is the sharp end of a wider devaluing of graphic design - no matter what the fee, a lot of clients now see design as a cheap commodity (free pitching anyone?)
2012-01-26 13:12:00
Great article - i can see parallels with the photography market, in regards to micro-stock and the ever increasing race to the bottom with commission fees.
2012-01-26 13:58:32
Good article. Well done for trying them out.
I think the victims are the designers who feel the need to work this way - presumably they only get a percentage of the fee. They are truly undervalued.
2012-01-26 14:08:05
Down here in Wiltshire clip art is king. I asked a mechanic (superb, mends every make of car) why his logo was a man with an oil can standing beneath a car on a hydraulic platform. He said it only cost him £200. Then I thought, well, that's what he does – he will perhaps, at some point during a normal day stand beneath a car in his overalls holding an oil can... but it's not a logo. But he doesn't care. His name's spelled right even if you struggle a bit to interpret that horrible script face with the baseline, with outline and drop shadow.
Whether people know about the raging debates that rock the design Casbah or not, people DO get an idea of the simplest quality that a good identity delivers, and that's confidence.
I would never think of putting a dolphin as part of a design where the name says it. Why bother?
Anyway, near us, in Hampshire is a one-man driving school. He demonstrates with alarming clarity why we still need people who do design intelligently; a fabricator of perspex signs will let you call yourself the Impact School of Motoring.
2012-01-26 14:49:07
I loved this experiment firstly, gave us all a lot to think about.
It really does come down to the kind of business in question whether they should justify spending more money on a professional full service agency, or £25 for a wee logo for your (perhaps) trade based business. All the tradesmen I'm hiring at the moment to renovate my flat, I couldn't give a shit what their logo/business card/website looks like, so long as they get the job done for the right price.
And thats coming from a somewhat obsessive designer who thinks everything should be well communicated.
If you're in the business of needing to appeal to peoples disposable cash (lets say a cupcake shop) then image is everything, so you should find the right designer or agency that probably charge a little more but delivery the right results for the job. The brand should subconsciously convey the kind of place you are.
I'm not thrilled about my boiler perhaps costing £1k, but I certainly didn't look for the one with the prettiest logo
2012-01-26 14:54:00
Great article.
It's horses for courses chaps...
There is a need for cheap logos, just as there is a need for cheap clothes, food, homes, etc.
People will always choose the best they can within their budget.
Lets face it you wouldn't buy a £2 top from a charity shop if you could afford to shop in Hermes now would you!!!
2012-01-26 15:32:11
It's something we're all going to have to deal with and charging less isn't the answer.
I stopped free pitching 20 years ago - won't do it. If a client wants a logo for £25, good luck to them, I won't be doing it.
The truth is there was nothing clever in the design, they didn't inspire but, as a cheap solution for someone on a very tight budget, they're fine.
I imagine this work isn't done in the UK (if you know where I'm coming from). I object to British businesses farming work out abroad - even our local newspaper (which claims to be at the heart of the community) is having its display ads done in India. It's shocking!
2012-01-26 15:49:56
Considering the majority of potential clients wouldn't know the difference between good and bad logo design I think the cheap logo designers have found a niche. It's a perfect solution for the client that does want to get all designer on you. They effectively can 'design' their own logo without having any clue as to what they are doing.
I got out of the graphic design business for this reason. Too many kids with blue hair, charging $20 an hour to design and implement logos and web sites, with no marketing, design, or typography skills to speak of, and clients who want to man-handle the design process.
Now this client loses the benefit of gaining any actual learning from the process, and they get what they pay for, but in the end, they get what they wanted. I think the bigger picture here is telling us that there are too many 'designers' out there. Granted, many didn't go to school, and purchasing a computer, Illustrator and Photoshop, and even hanging a shingle declaring yourself a designer, does not make a designer, how are you going to educate the consumer/potential design client and convince them that your work is worth ten times more?
2012-01-26 16:20:10
Surely this is about the difference between logo design and branding.
For those that understand the true value of branding this type of service is of no consequence. Its not competition, because the people that are willing to go down this road are probably not prepared to pay for
a professional service in the first place.
What is important is that as creative and design professionals, we continue to value our work and connect
with like-minded companies and individuals who have seen the reward that good creativity, design and branding can bring.
2012-01-26 16:32:41
I wonder if they do websites too - if so it that'll be why I didn't hear back from that company I schleped 80 odd miles to see before Christmas with my associate writer...
2012-01-26 16:54:58
Really good experiment and a great insight into what the process actually is for people who tend to use these sevices!! Would love to know the exact details of the process side from the designers i.e how many hours of work, creative process etc.
2012-01-26 17:06:33
From a purely business perspective i think it is fascinating. Clearly the work is completed offshore...
Picture if you will a design factory - a firm in the uk collecting revenue, sending more than a 1000 briefs offshore everyday, getting all the work back 24hrs later. Building a dynamic digital asset and content management system, delivering all the content back to clients. Sitting back and making money without having to torture yourself about what value you are bringing to the process. Pure middleman capitalism at it's best. I wonder what a look at their financial accounts would show?
2012-01-26 17:51:10
After being asked in the past by small design agencies why my photography is so expensive compared with RF stock photography prices it's pretty rich for designers to suddenly be out raged by the rise of RF in graphics. Welcome to the struggle comrades...
2012-01-26 19:49:44
Would be interesting to go back to them as 'Dolphin Cleaning Services' from East London and see if you get the same results (I'm guessing you probably will.
It's websites like http://www.freelogoservices.com that scare me, where the client types:
Company Name / Choose Font / Choose Picture / Choose Colour and voila your finished logo!
2012-01-26 20:28:00
It reminds me of the violins made in China http://www.theworld.org/2010/01/violins-made-in-china/ . The quality began at the low end but kept improving.
Now, we start to see it in new fields every day. The question becomes, "How do we leverage it?"
Does on start using these services as their back room production and act as the guide for customers?
If they have the speed and you have the sense of design, why not team up and make better products faster?
2012-01-27 02:49:25
Forgetting they didn't include the fonts in the final package, I would interested to see how you would have done the logo. As a customer off the street I think the logo is exactly what you asked for and as a consumer of the service I would be happy dealing with the company. Therefore, are you suggesting you are more creative, would take a different approach or what?
2012-01-27 03:31:36
@matt
Yeah totally, I know exactly what you mean. The logo design service http://www.freelogoservices.com is absolutely the worse.
It scares me that http://www.freelogoservices.com can get away with the low-quality design and logo creation services that it offers.
I would not recommend http://www.freelogoservices.com to anyone looking for low-cost design services. Nope. No way.
I wish http://www.freelogoservices.com would just disappear from the web.
2012-01-27 04:58:51
You should have tried fiverr.com
You can have anything done from logos to websites or SEO done for a fiverr (USD).
2012-01-27 06:11:08
A very similar experiment was run 3 years ago by "160over90". Here's the link to the blog (with comments): http://www.160over90.com/blog/2009/02/17/the-50-dollar-logo-experiment/
I personally, don't think that's something we should worry about. In my work experience the main issues I have are related mostly to the maintenance of a project more than its ideation.
Will the people behind this service be available when Phil will need its logo to applied to a website, business card or (as mentioned) to provide the vinyl letters to his van?
2012-01-27 12:07:33
i find the whole 'experiment' a bit dirty. you basically took advantage of them for the article.
there has ALWAYS been a place for this type of work, just as there will always be a place for more considered, and costly work. vernacular design is just changing with the times, nothing to worry about.
2012-01-27 12:53:43
My first reaction to this was a shiver down the spine... what a horror story. Pity the cash-strapped mac operator that finds themselves in this kind of sweat shop. I wrote my thesis 10 years ago on the subject of democratised design; the cheapness and ease of use of the tools that means anyone can suddenly call themselves a designer, but that's to say 'relative' cheapness - setting up as a studio is still expensive, I just can't see how they're making it pay?
If you think 3 hours of your time is worth £25, good luck to you. But you need to design a lot of logos to pay for a Mac and the Adobe suite, rent for the space, bills, wages... It's crazy to think think this is making anyone any money? I got to thinking, I wonder if some kind of algorithmic, automated software is involved? Put in the text you need and a couple of keywords and it throws out a dozen or combinations?
Shudder.
2012-01-27 13:29:04
A really interesting read. Initially it seems like uncomfortable reading for a designer, but on reflection I'm more optimistic.
As a designer myself, I've long since learned to avoid clients who just want you to knock something out for peanuts. I'll happily leave them to spend their £25 with the online services, and look to work with clients who value the expertise and experience of a proper professional, and are prepared to pay for it.
If there is a lesson to be learned, it is this: as designers we should always be encouraged to question the value of what we do, and to strive to add as much value for our fee as possible.
2012-01-27 13:52:16
This is a great article, but I do believe many here are being being too harsh. There's lots of talk about "branding" and such, but for Pete's sake, this is meant to be a local plumbing service, not the next social media tech startup. Start asking the guy what concepts he's trying to get across to his customers and he'll probably think you're an idiot who doesn't know what a plumber is.
2012-01-27 15:34:45
Brilliant article, but very difficult conversation. In these austere times, traditional design and marketing suffers. However the blind-sightedness to this is that it ultimately effects a companies competitiveness. Recent figures have shown that the amount of people being made redundant and becoming self-employed will open this market and debate even further.
Ultimately, as you say, people will get what they pay for, and if they are not happy with the cheap option they will seek out a better service. However, I have seen cases where a client will ask for quotes from low, medium ahd high price/ service designers.
What we should do as a community is have the conversation with clients about why paying the premium matters, and not low-balling for the sake of staying competitive. Regardless of the doom and gloom, markets will recover and we need to be careful not to price ourselves out of the game.
2012-01-27 15:45:08
Great article! I've been pondering over these cheap logo / stationary companies for a while. They have their catalogue of logo templates / clipart then insert the company name to suit. There's definitely a market for them. Take vistaprint for example. Business is booming for producing absolute crap. All because the customer either 1. Doesn't want to pay. 2. Doesn't know what they could have. 3. Feels their business doesn't need a high end Identity, or 4. Simply doesn't care. I had a friend that wanted some Biz cards producing, they sent over the most disgusting logo I've ever seen (designed in house) I tried to hint that it could reflect badly on their company. They did not give 2 hoots. Just wanted done as cheap as possible. Unfortunately some people have poor taste and are ignorant to the fact that design matters! It'll never change!
2012-01-27 16:19:24
Really interesting experiment. But a logo isn't a badge to be designed in isolation and then stuck on things! I would be interested to know what you would think was the right price for a logo with no consideration of how it was going to be used or any supporting material?
2012-01-27 22:26:30
This has been done before. CR should be honest if they're regurgitating someone else's old story just to keep the debate current. Not the greatest journalistic exposé.
This is from almost three years ago:
http://www.160over90.com/blog/2009/02/17/the-50-dollar-logo-experiment/
2012-01-28 19:01:00
Put yourself in the position of the local kitchen fitter in Norfolk, making a go of it on his own – keeping count of every penny of his low start-up budget. Is he going to go with an agency, which he believes in his head are expensive because thats what people tell him, or is he going to pay £25 for a minimal risk solution that acts as 'just something' to start off with because he still doesn't know if he'll make it alone?
I think initially a service like this serves a purpose to some, not all.
We as designers should accept this, but continue to work hard in differentiating ourselves from such services and focus on the value we add to the process.
2012-01-30 14:34:53
no-spec.com
2012-01-30 21:35:41
I'd like to see what the fictional plumbers would have got if they could afford the cash!
2012-01-31 15:36:15
Great article, but slightly depressing reading!
2012-01-31 20:42:48
I do agree with Dan Bradfield, it's the market law. Targeting the right customers is the key.
2012-02-01 12:37:02
I think you set them up at bit. Calling it Dolphin Plumbing Service, you knew exactly what you were going to get back, and when the first designs came through, you pushed them down the most obvious route with poor feedback/comments for them to work with.
What would be much more interesting would have been if you had, first of all, not named it something cliched, and gave detailed, constructive criticism to see how they would then deal with the amends. Then you could properly judge the logo and service. If you pay £25 for a logo, choose the most obvious option and give vague feedback, then its perhaps unsurprising that what comes back isn't brilliant.
2012-02-01 13:45:25
Good for them. There seems to be a market for this sort of thing and it seems to work.
Put it this way, aren't you pleased when you get a voucher for a £10 meal at some nice restaurant? We don't care about their hard work, skill or what they're paying their staff (who, I'll bet you don't tip).
Knock down design? It has it's place, let them get on with it.
Thankfully it's not too good, or we'd all be out of a job
2012-02-01 19:19:43
Interesting article. But, yes there is absolutely a place for the budget creative services company; for some people it makes complete sense; tend to agree with comment above; 'Knock down design does have its place, let them get on with it'. However, there is a key difference between the budget-guys and the creative/design agencies that are at the opposite end of the market. See link below;
http://hatchedlondon.com/blog/2012/02/a-75-logo-and-a-website-for-130-is-that-really-going-to-help-you-achieve-your-business-goals/
2012-02-02 12:31:10
Interesting article.
By looking of some of your own work, I don't see any difference.
Looking at the squirrel for example, what's the diffetence? People have to make a living, and
I'm sure in some countries that 25 pounds is quite a lot of money.
2012-02-02 13:41:03
Great article
Does anyone know where the designers for these types of companies are based? Surely not the UK. Irrelevant of the quality of the final design, it would be an impossible business model to make any money at all
I might use them on every job I am doing in future, to pad the routes out... especially if it involves animals
2012-02-02 15:19:36
Great article
Does anyone know where the designers for these types of companies are based? Surely not the UK. Irrelevant of the quality of the final design, it would be an impossible business model to make any money at all
I might use them on every job I am doing in future, to pad the routes out... especially if it involves animals
2012-02-02 15:23:06
Well this was amusing and scary at the same time. Just the fact that they sent through the first set as logo's was very laughable and it got worse.
Its a shame these companies are running, its a shame the buying companies dont take more responsibility for what they are purchasing.
Shame on these fools, but this post made my day!
2012-02-10 12:13:26
As an x owner of a small design studio in a smallish city in England, your always going to come across people who run small businesses and have little expectations of marketing. Mostly due to lack of knowledge and also to some extent, lack of need. Small small businesses don't really care about a relevant brand/logo, as they tend to deal with very similar people of that mind set aka Joe Bloggs is a gas fitter for Jane Bloggs.
There is a second tier of small businesses who do see the potential in growing their business to being more than a 'sole trader' and in my experience they have the foresight to spend more. Anywhere from £200 - £500 (Still not a great deal of cash, but enough to put a day or so into the process). It's rare for small business to spend £500+
So like most things, different strokes for different folks.
2012-02-14 13:40:25
Opting in to pay low prices for lower quality work is not different than paying your fat cousin to fix your leaky toilet, instead of hiring a professional plumber. People usually know what they will get for their money and most of us are fine with that. There will always be room for cheaper alternatives, especially when big agencies continue to take millions of dollars from their clients, to produce work that is marginally better than the amateurs out there.
Do you seriously believe that taking thousands of dollars to produce some trivial shape that is now called a logo makes sense to your clients? You can take anything in the world and make it your identifying symbol, so why spend so much when you can get the same result for next to nothing, or free in some cases?
Yes, well designed and thought out logos are awesome, but the real power of a logo is its association with a great product or service that stands behind it. The Nike logo means nothing without the association with their products - people had to be taught over so many years to remember it. The actual value of the image itself is next to zero, when you don't have much substance behind it, so I'm not surprised that lots of businesses out there choose to go cheap.
2012-02-14 14:22:45
Just coming back to this...
Rather than covering individual replies, one thing the experiment has proved is that many of you have confused crowd sourcing, spec work and a paid job. So we wrote another blog post...
http://mtdlph.in/wUSezr
Regards,
Tom and Phil
2012-02-15 11:09:50
I may be repeating some sentiments already made but to be honest the volume of comments the article generated far exceeded my free time to read them all!
Suffice to say, I think this is about targeting. If you are a talented designer and find yourself competing against these logo bureau's, then you are speaking to the wrong people.
There's a place for this service (I know because I used to work with an 'Entrepreneur' who would form a new business every week and turn to one of these companies for execution of the logo for business cards.) He didn't have the patience or cognisance to deal with a real designer. He wanted it cheap, fast and painless. However any designer worth his salt would recognise this and immediately write him off as a potential prospect.
It's a great article - well done guys - but simply reinforces the need to be selective with your prospects. Understand that not everyone knows the value of the work that many designers put into things and that being the case, why would you want to work for them?
A horse looks like a horse to me, regardless of how many races it's won. Therefore, I do not consider myself a good buyer of horses.
2012-02-16 13:14:38
First excuse my bad English:
I agree with what is written in the article, but I think designers should also know how to do marketing of themselves as well as knowing how to design a logo.
But I know many designers who make their site very nice and wait hoping that the work comes only from the window.
If you are professionals and want to live by the designer, must have the courage to knock on the door of the big companies do marketing and of themselves, do not wait for the plumber or the florist who want to make your own logo ...
2012-02-20 16:21:24
The brief says: "My name is Phil... I'm not fussed about colours and things...". Suggest that the work is pretty much on brief. What would have happened if a classy insight-rich brief had been issued?
2012-02-20 17:46:08
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