I wonder if there’ll be a “Submit your best flag design” competition to go with it

Posted by Andrea on 28/11/07, 10:48 pm

I thought The Sun’s added green stripe was alright.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/mystic_meg/article516135.ece?slideshowPopup=true&articleId=516135&nSlide=2

But I’m not Welsh.

Posted by Ben on 28/11/07, 11:51 pm

This is a bit silly. The Union Flag represents the union of kingdoms. Wales, like it or not, is a principality of England. It was annexed to England in the 16th century.

Despite all the efforts of Welsh nationalists, Wales has even devolved differently. Wales does not have the same level of self-determination as Scotland. There would need to be an entirely different constitutional settlement for the dragon to be applicable to the Union Flag.

Posted by Sol on 29/11/07, 1:02 am

There’s a site called We Are Multicolored that allows you to design your own flag – http://www.wearemulticolored.com

You can even include Wales!

Posted by Matthew on 29/11/07, 1:38 am

Here is my flag design: http://www.ufoby.com/newuk.gif I want to continue the idea of crosses.

But I still can not believe that UK is going to change the flag after 200 years of using it!

Posted by Siarhei Stashkevich on 29/11/07, 3:11 am

While they’re at it, could they please take the Saltire out of it? I realise that this might make the flag inconsistent with the concept of the Union, so to even things up we’ll happily leave and go our own way!

Posted by Alan Russell on 29/11/07, 1:15 pm

Perhaps It’s time to reconsider our Union Flag entirely. Why not disregard everything that’s symbolises this great nation a’la Olympic Games and ‘do sum graf’? Besides, is the flag really the cause behind all our identity problems? Do the Welsh really want to feel part of Britain with it’s torid PR of late? Stay put Welsh, go it alone. Really, you’re better off that way.

Posted by Graham Watson on 29/11/07, 2:33 pm

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/davidbowieWAU/flag.jpg

So simple it took an Aussie to design it.

Posted by Chris on 29/11/07, 3:42 pm

The problem with the green diagonals in the Sun is they remove St Patrics cross. However being brought up in Swansea as british I have always felt left out because of the lack of Welsh symbolism in the Union Flag. (As a point of note the Union Jack has a border and is flown on the Jack Staff of a naval vessel) However though not a nationalist the comments of Sol could turn me that way, despite having an English Rose of a wife and two English roses as daughters. I am proud of being Welsh and feel deeply hurt by those who look upon my desire for national identity as “a bit silly”.

Posted by Mart on 29/11/07, 8:28 pm

My first reaction is : I am sorry I am American and maybe I don’t have a right to say this but the union jack has been around forever why would they go and screw up one of the greatest marks in history? A dragon in the middle of the flag, I just don’t see that flying, nor do the colors of the black and yellow work with the red and white aesthetically it looks like a giant mish mosh.

But my second reaction is: Maybe the welsh have a point, and the dragon if it was incorporated into the X rather than a white box behind it and simlified could work, but it would have to be simplified. Good luck. But I still think leave it alone, and if anything add an element of the dragon more subdued into the blue background on white.

Posted by joseph on 29/11/07, 9:08 pm

Here’s my take on the new United Kingdom flag:

http://designwithoutsleep.com/blog/UK_Flag.gif

Posted by Shaun Tollerton on 30/11/07, 3:54 am

“my desire for national identity”

You HAVE a national identity, flag and all, bold and apparent at any national event or sports fixture. Scotland too.

Scotland and Wales, just deal with the fact that you’re part of the Union. Either join in, play nice and be grateful for the benefits that it affords you. Or go it alone and enjoy your respective identities’ flags. You have your assemblies, go referendum! Whining about inclusion/exclusion on a Union Flag is a bit petty, imho.

The dragon would look rubbish any way you add it. South Africa did alright with their ‘new’ flag…

Posted by Ed Wright on 30/11/07, 10:40 am

Ed Wright - I think you should get on with that web site of yours before you go giving out opinions.

Personally I think the flag is fine as it is, history has given us this flag, it’s authentic. And the aesthetics of our flag is something to be admired, I’d cringe at any black or yellow within the design! Although I think a silhouette of a dragon imposed upon the blue in either a lighter or darker shade would be attractive and not draw too much away from the original.

Posted by Hume on 30/11/07, 1:52 pm

Sorry Hume, there’s me thinking this bit was for comments and opinions. Silly me.

You could say the the Union Flag is a very strong worldwide brand, and the Dragon, Saltire and St George’s cross are its distinctive sub-brands, some of the most recognisable in the world. Why mess with them?

Posted by Ed Wright on 30/11/07, 5:11 pm

Hell, why not dispense with flags all together? They seem so last century and archaic.

The United Kingdom(TM)
Where do you want to go today?

Posted by Marcus Taylor on 30/11/07, 5:43 pm

Being Welsh and proud of my heritage and language, I don’t really see the need to change the UJ….. well, that is untill I read arrogant comments such as Sol’s. His is the type of comment that makes one not want to be associated with the UJ and what is has stood for.

If a change is to happen, I think all that would be needed would be to add a yellow (from the cross of St David) outline to the St George cross… along the lines of Aussie Chris’ design.

Adding the dragon will not work from a design point of view.

Posted by Alun Jones on 01/12/07, 10:47 am

I really should have added Er Wrights’ name with Sol’s. Your superiority complex is extremly tiersome and very distructive.

It seems you have woken up the dragon in me……*shakes fist in a dissaproving manor at the monitor*

Posted by Alun Jones on 01/12/07, 10:57 am

Graham watson speaks words of wisdom, to be born welsh is to born privilaged, not with a silver spoon in your mouth, but with music in your blood and poetry in your soul. WALES FOREVER

Posted by leighton Barnett on 02/12/07, 4:51 am

If this were to happen would all flags of the Commonwealth using the Jack require a change too? ie Australia and New Zealand…

Posted by Ben Liney on 03/12/07, 3:01 am

Johnson Banks has pitched in with some suggestions for a new, Welsh-friendly Union Flag here

Posted by Patrick on 03/12/07, 10:57 am

“Your superiority complex is extremly tiersome and very destructive.”

No more so than your inferiority complex. “Until we stop looking at ourselves through the eyes of another nation, we will never properly grow up.” Dick Gaughan of Scotland, but applicable to Wales too.

Posted by Ed Wright on 03/12/07, 12:33 pm

Pretty superficial argument from culture minister Margaret Hodge.

Politically: the “isolation” does not have to be at all with the presence or absence
of a dragon…The problem is way deeper than a dragon on a flag. The identification with the main icon of culture will not be solved by an superficial iconographic representation. That will be the outcome of political redistribution, not a mere design solution.That seems to be a formality not a solution.

Graphically: not all groups should have an identifier to be counted as part of the identity. If this is the case then the flag would not be a flag but a collage.

Interesting debate.

Posted by Maria on 03/12/07, 6:49 pm

it would be better for everyone involved if the union jack was *at least* updated; it’s synonymous with racism and thuggish behavior across the world.

(ed- i don’t understand why my previous version of this comment was not published, yet you allow petty bickering from the likes of ‘Ed Wright’ and ‘Hume’, and the flame fuel of ‘Sol’…)

Posted by fazylucker on 03/12/07, 8:23 pm

“ed- i don’t understand why my previous version of this comment was not published, yet you allow petty bickering from the likes of ‘Ed Wright’ and ‘Hume’, and the flame fuel of ‘Sol’”

Sorry about that - it wasn’t deleted intentionally but must have been caught up in the avalanche of spam we received over the weekend

Posted by Patrick on 03/12/07, 8:58 pm

[“Your superiority complex is extremly tiersome and very destructive.”

No more so than your inferiority complex. “Until we stop looking at ourselves through the eyes of another nation, we will never properly grow up.” Dick Gaughan of Scotland, but applicable to Wales too.]

Oh the irony!

[………. it’s synonymous with racism and thuggish behavior across the world.]

..and let’s not forget, the UJ has been flown during some dam right shamefull behaviour historicaly too.

Posted by Alun Jones on 03/12/07, 11:34 pm

Sorry Alun, I don’t see the irony.

I don’t see why the Welsh want to be define themselves through inclusion on the [“shameful, thuggish, racist”] Union Jack when they have a fantastic flag/identity of their own AND are already represented, as was stated earlier, as a Principality of England.

Here’s an interesting article about Scotland’s emergence as an independent nation, beginning to define itself by what it is (a great and beautiful country) rather than what it is not (English). Wales shouldn’t be far behind.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/scotland/story/0,,2219636,00.html

Posted by Ed Wright on 04/12/07, 11:01 am

I dare say that most don’t want it, Ed Wright.

Posted by fazylucker on 04/12/07, 11:45 am

I’m inclined to agree with you, fazylucker. Which begs the questions, haven’t Albert Owen (“We in Wales…”) and the other Welsh MPs mentioned in the post got better things to do for their people than worry about a flag?

Posted by Ed Wright on 04/12/07, 12:50 pm

Ed, you claim we have an inferiority complex. Well with your insistance on calling Wales a principality of England and suggest we look at ourselves through the eyes of others, there’s no suprise is there?

Apparently being proud to be Welsh equates to being anti-English. So I suppose entertaining the idea of being represented on the Union Jack is my way of showing that you can be Welsh and British (and of course, not hate the English).
I do however, wholeheartedly agree with your last post; Welsh MPs (and AMs) have better things to do. I just wish they realised that!

Would a daffodil or a leek look better than a dragon on the UJ?

Posted by Alun Jones on 04/12/07, 8:19 pm

Here’s the most logical solution, Wales wants in on the Union flag right? OK, soon When Scotland restores her full independence and we take our St Andrews saltire with us then there will be loads of room on the old rag

Posted by Steve on 06/12/07, 12:53 pm

I’m English, my partner’s Welsh, and I actually think it’s rather a cute idea, but it does seem like these discussions take up rather a lot of MPs’ time.

How about this?
http://www.rorycole.com/unionjack.jpg

Posted by Rory on 07/12/07, 1:23 am

As a Welshman I feel the union flag means nothing to Wales, adding us now is a token gesture, forward with devolution I say, with Scotland and Wales getting back what’s rightfully theirs country and flag, soon we will be free… we can become a part of Europe as an independent country, get out of the way England. When branding, a logo is an external mark that reflects the companies aspirations and mantra. So lets get all the countries mission statements to reflect their aspirations and then tackle the branding, Wales wants independance……

Posted by Otug on 09/12/07, 8:34 pm

I’m a Welsh woman living in Canada and while I hold three citizenships (born in Wales to an American father that was in the US service, became a Canadian to vote in the 90s) when asked, I’m Welsh…

Although I’ve never lived in Wales, my mother ensured that I was raised to be fiercely proud of being Welsh…

Anyone that denigrates and belittles a collective’s desire to be included and regarded shows how little regard that one has for people over all…

Progress is progress and change is inevitable…just because something’s been a certain way for years doesn’t mean it’s not ripe for change or right to change…

What is everyone so afraid of??

Posted by KSD on 12/12/07, 7:35 pm

Personally, I don’t believe the Welsh should have their flag in the British flag. I don’t see the British flag as containing the English, Scottish etc, I see it as a flag representing Britain not made up for many flags, individual in its own way.

There have been many attempts to change the flag in these comments, many of which are good ideas but way to complex to work properly. Tradition being what it is, why not leave it alone or give it to Wolff Olins to jazz it up.

Posted by Thomas Wood on 13/12/07, 9:06 pm

maybe without the white background or a smaller dragon.

Posted by Kurt on 23/01/08, 8:35 pm

As a catalan -not spanish- and as a designer, i like the UJ idea but not what I read between lines: England’s cross is OVER. And i should like it cause Saint George (Sant Jordi) is also Catalonia’s saint…

Southafrica example is not so beautiful but more fair, a union of 2 where no symbol is above the other.

If Scotland leaves for good and Wales puts green on the UJ be careful with the copyright of basque flag LOL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikurri%C3%B1a

Posted by Eduard Xandri on 04/02/08, 2:27 pm

i am american and don’t really know all the back politics to this, but if it’s that important that the welsh have their own identity yet still be associated with the uk. why don’t they create their own flag and incorporate the union jack into it? like new zealand and australia.

Posted by kewrock on 31/03/08, 3:20 am

Wales has long been recognised as one of the four constituent countries of the UK. Its status as a principality is no excuse for not having it represented on the flag - Northern Ireland is featured despite being a rump province of a former kingdom.

How about this for a solution? http://andrewg.wordpress.com/2008/04/24/on-the-union-jack/

Posted by Andrew Gallagher on 24/04/08, 1:36 am

Since the Welsh dragon is red, just kick Northern Ireland out already and have the government officially anounce that the red which previously stood for Ireland, symbolises the red dragon of Wales.

Fair deal.

Posted by Too Too on 24/04/08, 4:41 pm

Also Scotland or Wales won’t get independence and they don’t deserve it anymore than any of the other former kingdom’s Wessex took over, like Northumbria for example. Scots out of the historic Kingdom of Northumbria!

I think Europe is stepping back into the Middle Ages, all these feudal pseudo-nations looking to secssion is just pathetic.

Posted by Too Too on 24/04/08, 4:47 pm

There are heraldic, as well as aesthetic, reasons why many of the designs shown on here don’t work.

Heraldry says that a metal may not be placed on or against another metal, nor a fur against a fur nor a “tincture” (colour) against a tincture. That’s why the original flag is so complicated

For this purpose, yellow represents gold, and white represents silver. Black represents the fur sable, and other furs are represented by certain symbols against white (ermine, with its arrowheads in a diagonal formation, being the most obvious and common).

All this restricts the design!

Posted by Alan Jenkins on 15/05/08, 12:13 am

Regarding the comments from “Sol”, telling us all so boldly that Wales was ‘annexed’ to england many moons ago, I think you’ll find that the english government carried this out with usual disregard for anyone who isn’t english, whatever ‘english’ actually means (mongrel maybe?).

Let’s also not forget the treatment of young welsh schoolchildren in the late 1800s, when they would be forced not to speak Welsh (!?!)and made to wear a heavy wooden block around their necks with the initials on said block being ‘W.N.’, standing for ‘Welsh Not’.
Quite barbaric really!
Strange considering that the Welsh language (as well as other celtic languages in the U.K.), was spoken on the British Isles many years before the English language, which ironically, is derived from the German language!!
Hmmmm, say no more!

Posted by Pendrohead on 17/06/08, 9:30 am

A Simple Verson Of the Welsh Flag/union flag…

Posted by Daniel Morarty on 26/06/08, 11:14 pm